My wife just reminded me of a perfect example. When we were in the church in Atlanta, my wife and I used to simultaneously drive both of our vehicles all over Atlanta to pick folks up for church services. The vast majority of members in the Atlanta church at that time didn't even own a vehicle, or if they did it was constantly breaking down which was the case with two brothers that come to mind. So as a result, the pastor wanted me to run my two vehicles into the ground so to speak. We were spending an extensive amount of money just getting folks back and forth to church because Atlanta was a big city and in addition to that, we lived about 25 min from the church before we even left to pick up the first soul. My family frequently traveled to church separately with my wife picking up people in thug infested ghettos. I decided to put a stop to the two vehicle church delivery business.
I called pastor Mayers and explained to him that I was intending to discontinue the practice of driving two separate vehicles to church at the same time. He got upset to say the least. (Just for information, at that time Mayers rarely if ever used his van to pick folks up for church but he had no problem with me using both of my vehicles.) I proceeded to tell him that I was the one who paid for the insurance, registration, and cost of upkeep and it was my responsibility to balance my budget and assets. I also told him that I had heard RWD preach about financial management and as a result I determined that I was not effectively managing my finances and assets if I allowed that practice to continue. Boy did he get mad. Mayers had gotten in the habit of giving my wife instructions without consulting me first. Then I put the icing on the cake. I told him that if he wanted my wife to pick folks up for church he was to consult me first. I gave my wife the same instructions. I had decided that to allow another man to order my wife around was no longer an option and it was going to stop for two reasons: the man was abusive like too many other NTCC pastors, and she was my wife not his.
So later on my wife was in one of his Sunday school meetings. Mayers had asked my wife if she would agree to teach Sunday school full time while taking his wife, the other minister's wife, and the other ministers off the roster completely because they were tired of teaching Sunday school. My wife refused to give him an answer before she consulted me which was the "RIGHT ANSWER". Mayers then proceeded to grill my wife for an answer on at least three more occasions during the meeting. Once again Mayers got extremely upset about my wife refusing to give him an answer. On the way home she informed me of what had happened. Once at home, I called Mayers to inform him that my wife was no longer going to teach Sunday school at all. For the next three services he blasted my wife across the pulpit. While preaching he said things like, "just because you wear a dress and play the piano doesn't mean you're saved" and "some people here think they are too good to teach Sunday school" and "some folks don't want anything to do with those snotty nose kids" and "if you don't want to do it I don't need you because I have other people who can" and "thank you sister so and so for answering the call of God because some folks don't want to"!!!!! I should have left his church for good in the middle of the first blasting which would have prevented the subsequent ones from ever taking place. I have great regrets in that regard. Believe it or not I have forgiven Mayers but I WILL never forget and I firmly realize that he has no business remaining as a pastor over anyone.
So the moral of the story is don't let some sorry NTCC minister like RWD or Kekel or Mayers or any of the rest of them tell your wives or family members a single solitary thing unless you are present. And husbands, if you don't agree with what the pastors have to say to your family, then shut them down because it is highly improbable that their directives came from God in the first place.
Jeff
73 comments:
"The husband is the head of the family not the NTCC pastor."
I could shout from here to eternity on that quote alone!
You should add to that quote, brothers in the home are not the head of someone's wife either! What I found interesting was some Pastors would go on and on about how NOT to talk to their wives. Yet they would talk to your wife like yesterday's trash! Then they would "alpha dog" you and ask you what kind of man are you to LET your wife do so on and so on.
Another note...If your wife tells you that brother so and so is acting inappropriately towards her...you'd better be a man and do something about it!! Speaking from experience....
NS
Glad to see that this blog is here.
I was wondering though about Tracy Pelfrey's blog, does anyone know why when you click on the link for this that it is not there anymore?
I have obviously been away from the NTCC X-Posed site for a while and so recently when I went to catch up I was disappointed to see that it no longer exists.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for this blog......Tracy's blog was a great help to me while I was still "In" and it helped me so much to see the real truth about this messed up org.
Tracy decided to for personal reasons to take her blog down. She still does not advocate the NTCC. She had valid reasons for taking her blog down and she did it about a month after mine became active.
You could call it a pass of the baton if you like.
Jeff
"You could call it a pass of the baton if you like."
more like passing a baseball bat Bro. Jeff!
Actually it is more like the passing of the sledge hammer. You need to come out strong when you are tying to beat back serpents and blind guides.
Jeff
Thanks for the quick response Jeff and again for starting this blog.
I am just glad to hear that her removing the blog was not due to any threat from NTCC.
I will miss Brian's thoughts and Tracy's (the recordings etc.)
X-posing these hypocrites in any way is much appreciated =)
I look forward to catching up with your blog.
Is there any way to put a link for this blog on the X-posed site?
I may not have found it unless I clicked on the "reviews" link and saw a link over to this blog.
Thanks again.
Rev Gandy said something similar to me regarding the Sunday School thing. Though he did it over the phone and not in church, how I wasn't a 'real' Sister, and I needed to grow up and after I told him I would watch the children that evening I remember his words 'don't bother, I will have a real sister to do it'.
So...I guess if we don't teach Sunday School / watch children, guess us 'wimmin folk' aren't really right with GOD.
Glad that's all in the past now.
People need to think before they speak.
Jeff and Dawn,
I always wonder why God was so weak and powerless in NTCC?
What I mean is despite that God the creator of the Universe, owns cattle on a thousand hills,sent His Son to die for our sins etc. Yet in NTCC, if you eat the wrong way, dress the wrong way, or actually stand up for yourself... your salvation is gone -poof- just like that. Like God is weak or something. I thought there was power in the blood!
Let me see a show of hands...how many times did you have to get saved in NTCC?
Okay put your hands down. How about once you left NTCC how many times did you have to get saved?
Another thing that bugged me was the old the "hardest thing a Christian has to do is make the Rapture." If salvation is so easily dispensed in NTCC how come it is hard to make the rapture?
Going to Hell in NTCC is easy to do too! It is almost like they own exclusive rights to send people there!
I'm in now ways saying that everyone is going to Heaven...but sometimes I think NTCC "sends" more people to Hell than the Devil does.
Anon!
Anon! said...
Let me see a show of hands...how many times did you have to get saved in NTCC?
****************
I can't count the number of times.
These preachers have a way of laying a guilt trip on you that compares to no other. The weird thing is the amount of hate that began to manifest from so-called preachers.
L. Travis said:
"I can't count the number of times."
My point exactly! NTCC makes an absolute MOCKERY of what our Savior did for us on the cross by throwing around the phrase "Get Saved" like a wet dishrag!
Anon!
...oh another thing...
I always liked how there were three people in a service..and one was a new-comer. The pastor would say "And some of you people..." which was basically your whole business! Details weren't even changed to protect the innocent.
I would think wow! He must of been sweating out that message in prayer last night like Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane---NOT!
I wouldn't get mad, I just felt sorry for the Pastor for not being inspired to be creative.
Anon!
Dawn,
You just jogged my memory. I can remember when I was pregnant with my daughter. The minister had to say it behind the pulpit. That me and another sister were USING our pregnancy as an excuse to get out pulling our work in the Church. This work was a military work. Two pregnant women inviting soliders out! How stupid we would look!
I felt like a lazy slob.
CM
Jeff
I want to use this blog say this to you and anyone else that I might know that reads this blog. If I have said anything offensive and stupid as one of the ministers did please forgive me!
My prayer always was to give me the right words to help.
NTCC JEOPORDY:
Theme: Famous quotes from NTCC ministers:
Subject: How to be an accomplished NTCC soul-winner.
Answer:
The originator of the following statement: "Guilt trips 101 - You must be an expert!"
-insert jeopardy music here-
Hint - Don't forget to phrase your answer in the form of a question.
Who is P.A Kinson?
Who is Jim Jones?
Who is Some People?
Does anyone else have any feelings about the information that I wrote about to start this thread?
Is there anyone else able to give other examples of NTCC pastors taking it upon themselves to direct family members such as wives and children without consulting the dad or the husband first?
Is it a common practice for NTCC pastors to conduct themselves in such a manner?
Jeff
Jeff,
A while back my husband and I were having some marital problems. My husband had attended NTCC, but stopped and went to another church. However, we were still a great team and friends.
I went to the Pastor for marrige counceling, and he couldn't see past the fact that my husband attended a different church!
When my wanted me to go home at a decent hour. The Pastor would do his best to talk me out of it. Or the Pastor wanted me to pick up people for church when I had dinner to finish!
The last straw was when he tried to devise ways for me to get rid of my husband. He told me to stop having sex with him, cooking for him...etc. Jeff let me ask you where is the God in that? Basically he asked me to put my husband in temptations way.
I'm so glad I'm out of that mess!
BN
Bro Jeff,
Greetings and Salutations from the liberated Johnson family!!
I took my kids to go see Ice Age: Dawn of the Dinosaurs, in 3D, A GOOD TIME was had by all!!
My daughter Charity is involved with Ballet and Piano class, and my son Daniel is learning beginner Karate, a no-no in NTCC land.
My youngest son Joseph in in Preschool and he just turned 3. NTCC would have disapproved of that, because it is during Prayer Meeting / early Soul Winning time of 8:00 - 11:00 in the morning on Mon/Wed/Fri.
My youngest son, Joseph is fluent with a mouse and a computer, and he is only THREE. That is scary. If we were still in NTCC we would not even have owned a computer.
I want to give my kids every advantage possible in the secular world, and I OWE it to my kids to give them every opportunity that NTCC TOOK AWAY from my first son, Daniel, who actually transitioned quite well in his studies after we LEFT NTCC.
Readers of this blog, be sure to check out Kekel's updated NTCC blog, alas please pray for the Class of 09 newly minted NTCC preachers / preacherites, THAT THEY WILL LEAVE NTCC!!!
Continue to scroll down on the demented website and you will find some DISTURBING images.
PDQ, as you so aptly stated in a previous blog, WARNING: These pictures are not of the faint of heart.
Here we see NTCC Preachers, called by God, acting the fool. Displaying gang signs, crossing their eyes as if POSSESSED!?!
Oh, I forgot. These are the future leaders of NTCC. This is the NEW NTCC. Would Davis have allowed this in his Heyday? I THINK NOT!! Here we see the NTCC Graduates, acting LIKE THE WORLD!!!
Happy 4TH of July to all, Thanks to all formal and previous and current military brethren for your service to God and country!!
Bro Johnson
BN wrote...
"The last straw was when he tried to devise ways for me to get rid of my husband."
Jeff said...
What you wrote is typical conduct of many NTCC pastors. They are actually Anti-Christ in that respect and many others. It is not Biblically correct that husbands and wives divorce just because they attend different churches. The situation that you described is a very terrible example misuse and abuse. It is also an abuse of authority. Thank you for your testimony.
It's sad but necessary. People need to know what the NTCC is really all about. What you described is a cult through and through. Despite the fact that many current NTCCers think such testimonies are no more than lies, it still should serve as an eye opener for those who are genuinely searching for the truth about the NTCC. Any NTCCer with any decency who reads what you wrote, should find your testimony quite alarming, and they should be very ashamed of their church.
Jeff
Happy 4th to you also Bro J. It was good to hear of all the progress that your children are making and the different things that they are able to participate in.
It's a good thing because Grant Kekel has been participating in those type activities all along. The other hypocrite NTCC pastors who elected to ignore RWD's directives have also been allowing their children to participating in the same type of activities all along.
I guess it was our fault for actually believing what RWD and most of his pastors taught. The NTCC has proven to me that it often doesn't pay to actually practice whats been preached.
Jeff
bro Johnson,
i dont think what that the pictures from the ntcc graduation are such a big deal, they are just kids having fun, i dont think we need to major on the minors or be overly critical of things that are of no concern, there is plenty of false doctrine in ntcc to go after.
just adding my two cents..
t
sorry............scratch the 'what' too much coffee
In my Bible, don't know about ntcc's, it clearly states that What God has put together, let no man put assunder. Hmm... telling a woman that she should get rid of her husband, or advising her in ways to do so, to me is a clear indication of a man trying to break up what God put together. When a couple marries, they make vows, to each other, and in front of their friends and family, AND IN FRONT OF GOD. When you make vows before God, you'd best do you your hardest to keep them. Now, I in no way believe that God would hold your vows against you if your personal safety, or that of your children was in peril due to an overly abusive husband, or if your spouce really does desert you (not deserting your faith, but actually moves out of the house, or kicks you out, and says s/he doesn't want to be with you anymore). Otherwise, I firmly believe you owe it to yourself and to God to make it work, no matter what. You didn't just promise it to your spouce, you promised to God. Woe to the person who breaks a promise to God! Maybe people should think just a little bit harder before making such solemn promises that are meant to be permanent. It's supposed to be til Death do you part, and for better or worse. I don't remember taking any vows saying that I would Love, Honor, and Obey my husband so long as he remained of the same faith as me. I think it ended at Obey my husband.
For that matter... we, as women, are supposed to be subservient to our husbands. If a husband says he does not wish to go to a certain church anymore, who is the pastor to tell the wife that she needs to "get on his case" as I've heard some describe their instructions. We are not supposed to "TELL" our husbands anything. We are supposed to love them and cherish them, and support them, and pray for them, not "climb on their case" to "get them right." Who's job is it to tell a man if he is right or wrong? I was under the impression that it was God's duty to tell us if we are in the right or wrong, with the help of his ever-present spirit. That's what that "inner voice" is. Maybe SOME people should listen to their own inner voices about how to treat people and stay out of the business of other people's inner voices and what God has planned for them.
On that topic, and this is probably better for the "God told me" thread, but I never understood how RW could tell a man that God told him to go here or there, when the man himself was clueless, or how God could lay a place on a man's heart, only to have RW tell him that he couldn't go because HE hadn't heard from God himself about that yet. Excuse me? God lays something on a man's heart, and you're going to tell him that it wasn't really God? Hmmm... back to that whole "stay within your own inner voice" thing.
JM
JM Said...
God could lay a place on a man's heart, only to have RW tell him that he couldn't go because HE hadn't heard from God himself about that yet. Excuse me? God lays something on a man's heart, and you're going to tell him that it wasn't really God? Hmmm... back to that whole "stay within your own inner voice" thing.
*****************
How many of those divine appointments were successful? Hmmm... Better listen for yourself.
If my memory serves me correctly Pop Gaylord never did like RW telling people where to go. Pop wasn't the pusher man in that way. I remember once he told a brother if God wanted him to stay in the military that would be fine because the Army needed Christian soldiers too.
Jeff,
I know this should be on the
Be Careful When You Say, "God Told Me..." thread. I'll try to keep it in order next time.
Have to agree with 'T'....don't see anything wrong with the Class of 09's Bible school pictures.
They're just having fun...lighten up Bro. J. Like you haven't made funny faces at the camera :-D
Blessings to all ~
P.S. Bro. Johnson...my husband and I saw 'UP' yesterday in theaters...if your children haven't seen that yet, take them to it. It's really cute. :-D
In Bro. Johnson defense I'm shocked that they were allowed to make goofy faces and post them as if that's the norm. Hmmm... I don't think it would have been allowed under the old regime. Graduation is serious business.
I could be wrong but you would have to show me "other pictures like these."
That "brother" making the gangster sign,WOW!! It was ALWAYS somber,serious time. Family don't take picture while the ceremony was going on. Not like a normal graduation. Parents,friends snapping picture's.
It is just another example of the CHANGES that Mike K. refuses to acknowledge have and are happening!! If this had happened three years ago. I KNOW rw would have chewed them an entire new butt! Go up one side and down the other. NO MERCY! But because rw is not running the show,or so it seems. Mike K,runs the show. The big joker himself. Now ntcc is a much different ORG. kids can play sports,oh you don't really need to be there for soul-winning. It is up to you. No mandatory conference's. No fellowship meetings. Crooked land deals. Watch out for you that are still in ntcc. What is in store for ya'll. So glad we left and are free from the crap that your going to live through.
CM
Hopefully the class of 2009 is the class of change and reform.
Nellashara
If you had not been in ntcc for very long. This is something that has always happened. FLIPFOPPING! No BBQ or sports activties at servicemen's home's. Sure that has flipped. Since kids can now play sports. Something mk like's to sweep under his big rug! Great thing about the internet,the TRUTH WILL GET OUT!
I don't see it as progress. Same old thing. As rw loved to say,nothing new under the sun!
CM
Many of us have been saying this for some time now. The NTCC has caused so much hurt to so many people. There is a generation of NTCC folks will never forget how the NTCC treated them.
RWD and Mike Kekel are the two most despicable guys that I know. Collectively those two have perpetuated the biggest farce that I have ever been associated with. L. Travis and CM's recollection of the NTCC is no different than mine. Certain things that used to be a big deal are no longer a big deal.
The reason that certain folks here have differing opinions is because they weren't with the NTCC long enough to have a very good idea of what we went through. I totally understand CM and I understand how CHEATED she feels.
Mike Kekel: Stop insulting us. You need to admit that RWD's rules never came from God in the first place and you need to admit that you have changed the NTCC. Kekel you are one rotten hypocrite.
The whole atmosphere in the NTCC has changed. What is Mike Kekel trying to prove by posting pictures of guys throwing up signs and such? That you can be real now and still be a part of the NTCC? RWD and his pastors punched us in the face and now Kekel is slapping us in the face. I can't stand any of them. Mayers, Hunt, and Ramirez, would have never advocated throwing up signs for any reason say no less during a graduation.
Mayers, Hunt, Madrano, and Ramirez. You guys are so tough? Speak out against what Kekel is doing. He says it's ok for men to wear shorts. You guys know it was never ok. He says it's ok to clown around and throw out gang signs during a graduation but RWD would have never allowed that and you guys know it. You guys know it was never ok to wear tight football pants but it is ok now because Grant did it.
You've shown God just how weak you guys really are. All your preaching is in vain until you develop the character to stand up against your very own leader; Mike Kekel. For years you guys have stood behind your pulpits and verbally slaughtered your church members but now I see you ain't tough at all.
Mayers, Ramirez, Madrano, and Hunt: If you want to be tough stand up to Kekel or remain hypocrites and wind up in hell. You better hope hell doesn't exist because based on the bible that is where you are heading. I heard all of you preach against the very things that Mike Kekel says is ok now. Madrano: You just told one of your church members that he couldn't wear shorts in the serviceman's home. All the way out in California. Didn't you know that Kekel says shorts are ok now? You guys need to get on the same sheet of music.
L. Jones: I've heard you preach time and again. You better stand up and speak against Kekel or you will die and go to hell also.
Jeff
CM,
I remember when they took away the BBQ,football, chess etc out of the home. Talk about some heads hanging low! I definitely remember the children being told sports are "carnal". The girls were told worse things about participating in sports...I wont repeat here.
I guess NTCC has periods of dispensation like the Bible...from the law to grace. It is ashame that NTCC has used the same flag it used to hold up for "holiness" and has used it as a blindfold for the for its members.
What about all the people..all the souls who were sent to Hell...or the TV or the internet? Some people say it is a minor thing to worry about now....or they minimize something that was sin in order to wash away the guilt. Those were souls...not trash!
I know some folks don't agree with me on my stance about NTCC. I can take it, I got my big girl pants on! Perhaps I am blinded by my prayers. I know...that when God's people cry out in because of injustice...He doesn't just sit there. There are righteous people in NTCC. In the Bible God asked for just a few righteous to be in a certain city, and the city would be spared!
Bottom line I just want NTCC to be honest. If you erred in saying some was a sin, that isn't now....be upfront about it. Minimizing and dismissing only makes people angry.
Nellashara
Nellashara,
There is so much pride within the ntcc leadership that I doubt they will ever be able to admit they are wrong. The Bible says pride is a sin, and pride cometh before a fall. But, in ntcc, spiritual pride is alive and well-- and will eventually be their downfall.
There are righteous people in NTCC. In the Bible God asked for just a few righteous to be in a certain city, and the city would be spared!
said by Nellashara
I attended United Penticostal Church when I was younger. There was some folks in that messed up Church that had the goods. Does that mean that the UPC will eventually get there act together? No.
How can ntcc change when there policies were once sins. And now just for there minister's to live by. As if minister's have to live by different standards then the conregation. Minister in ntcc,you no more special then those sitting out in the pews.
CM
"I guess NTCC has periods of dispensation like the Bible..."
That reminds me of something a brother said about RW. The topic had come up about certain inconsistencies and contradictions between his various pronouncements. In defense of the "apostle," one brother said "Well, when it comes to what pastor says, you have to interpret it dispensationally..."
Isn't that a great line? It's true, too, because if room isn't left for creative interpretation, his narcissistic and abusive nature is readily apparent.
Wonder how his "retirement" is going?
CM,
I too attended a UPC church was saved and baptisted as a young teen. Most of my extended family is "Oneness". They were warned to change their ways and did not. So God allowed the church to be changed from a standing room only church, to a fledgling church devoid of young people.
The UPC I attended in Niceville is awesome. Granted, they have their rules...but I have never seen it linked to salvation. The Pastors wife invited me out when they were soul-winning at the mall! The church was full of youth and fun! They celebrated everyone's birthday with a church wide party monthly. They didn't celebrate Halloween, instead in November you had Pioneer Day. I never saw anyone embarrassed, however they did preach holiness as a denominational standard. They let you know who they were upfront, and they were financially transparent. I have seen churches like NTCC change, I'm not just blowing hot air.
I am going to post my number like Jeff and others..
Nellashara
2108455112(text and email only)
Ntcc is not a church. It is a good cover up. they pretend they are a Church. To fleece the flock.Make up stupid rules and then say it is biblical based. LIE's. Holiness is not based on manmade rule's that you have to follow. Or you will fall into the devil's trap of sin. Like rw thinks if you play UNO you will start to gamble and then become poor.
What has rw personally done for the Church. Besides sitting up front,crossing his arms,look mean at the conregation(intimdation) walks around full of pride(phasrisee)
Sorry but the UPC are a cult as well. Many different digree's of control in UPC. Still living by false doctring. False teacher's. So UPC would need to preach Gods word. With nothing added to change!! You can have a great youth program,be really nice people. Not getting you into Heave being nice and doing stuff with the kids. United Penticostal does not believe in the trinity. BIG doctrinal screw up there! Are they going to change there? One UPC might be good and not so overbearing. One apple in the barrel of rotten one's. There doctrine is still screwed up!
Did your UPC friends socialize with friends that do not attend there Church? Or did they just socialize with those that are in there group. As if all others are wrong,sinners!! The UPC I went to,was even cold towards my own mother. Because she did not attend the Church. I did.
Do the women have long hair,dresses down to the floor,no make-up,no earrings. And there rules are not linked back to Salvation? MMM.are you just blinded by there niceness and celbrating birthday's and not bashing folks over the pulpit.
CN
last post was from me,wrote CN meant CM
...not blinded by aything just relating what I saw.
My UPC reletives hung out with everyone...but mostly with kin.
Some of the younger women had earrings...they did trim their hair but kept it long. Not all UPCs are the same, same with AG, etc.
Nellashara
2108455112
"In defense of the "apostle," one brother said "Well, when it comes to what pastor says, you have to interpret it dispensationally..."
...all I can say to that is wow Vic.
I remember someone on FACTNET breaking down the NTCC dispensations...but I cant quite recollect.
NS
NS,
not all ntcc "churches are the same. So lets go find a GOOD ntcc church. Where they celebrate everyone's Birthday! Where they don't push there policies as biblical doctrine.
cm
The doctrine of the UPC is definitely heretical; Heresy makes groups a cult.
Anonymous said...
"Heresy makes groups a cult."
Jeff said...
So the NTCC also falls in that category. It certainly does if heresy places a church in the cult category. Some of what NTCC teaches is accurate but some of their teaching is inaccurate.
The fact is I could care less about other churches and their doctrine. I'm not interested information about the UPC either. If the UPC has managed to avoid all the double standards and abuse, it is still a better church than the NTCC. I don't know if there is a church on the planet that doesn't teach some false doctrine.
My gripe with the NTCC is not the teaching of false doctrine which does exist. My gripe with the NTCC is that some of their false doctrine teachings seriously affect their church members and ministers in an adverse way. The other problem I have with the NTCC is that some of the false doctrines that they teach are only arbitrarily enforced. Liking woman not working for example. Not only is that a false doctrine but in the process the NTCC has allowed some women to work when it suits the leaderships needs. When it doesn't suit their needs they place that yoke of bondage on families while preaching woman into the ground who work.
The NTCC is as big of a cult as any of them and even worse.
Anyway this blog is about the NTCC not the UPC.
Jeff
CM,
While I am no stranger to your pain...there is no need for the sarcasm! I'm not 5 years old. I think maybe you missed the point. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are some good praying people in NTCC who desire change in what ever form it may come through prayer, waiting on God, compromise etc.
Nellashara
Jeff said...
Does anyone else have any feelings about the information that I wrote about to start this thread?
I would like to say that if the pastor of your church is trying to bypass you as the husband and issue commands to your wife, do what Jeff did and take control! There is no excuse for a pastor to step out of line like that. Just be sure you, as the Christian husband, are doing what you know God wants you to do. In a pastor, member relationship where there is a husband and wife involved, the husband is the final authority as long as he is doing right by God.
For example, if the husband tells the wife, "lets go to the bar," he is obviously wrong. She shouldn't go to the bar, but she shouldn't leave him either. If he leaves her, that is another story. She shouldn't run after him. What I mean by that is if he leaves town in order to get away from the church, she is not obligated to follow him. He has deserted her.
If he leaves the church, but continues to live with her, there is NO REASON FOR HER TO DIVORCE HIM! Any time you are instructed to divorce someone simply because they don't want to serve God any more, that is wrong.
I know Pastor Davis has been alleged to give such instruction, but I don't know that to be a fact. I would be willing to go as far as to say that the people making such allegations are either not telling the whole truth, not telling the truth at all, or don't know all the details concerning the matter. Anyone who seeks to prove me wrong on this point, before you try, ask yourself if you really have inside knowledge and understanding of all the details or if you are making assumptions in any way.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
"I know Pastor Davis has been alleged to give such instruction, but I don't know that to be a fact. I would be willing to go as far as to say that the people making such allegations are either not telling the whole truth, not telling the truth at all, or don't know all the details concerning the matter. Anyone who seeks to prove me wrong on this point, before you try, ask yourself if you really have inside knowledge and understanding of all the details or if you are making assumptions in any way."
Jeff said...
Concerned Minister: That was a great message and I agree with your entire post except for the part that I quoted. The NTCC absolutely for years has advocated divorce if the husband or wife wasn't interested in belonging to the NTCC any longer.
This is a fact and it has been testified of on far too many occasions. Lets assume for a minute that RWD himself has never given such instructions but his pastors regularly have. I will guarentee that he has had knowledge of it so it makes him just as guilty. Especially when he is in charge and could stop it. Buddy you better believe that RWD is guilty on this divorce issue. I have personally seen it occur too many times in the NTCC for him not to be guilty. I wrote of an instance where a woman in my church was encouraged to leave her very own husband for no reason other than the fact that he wasn't in the NTCC. I know of a woman right now that the NTCC leadership has tried to bring back to Graham and leave her husband who was with the NTCC for years and years.
Jeff
concerned minister,
disllusioned as usual. got those rose colored glasses on. Time to take them off. And put your big boy pants on. rw is not who you think he is. mk and the rest of the so called leaders are not who you think they are. What have they really done to LEAD ntcc. Sit on there lard butts and take it nice and easy. And please don't use the reasoning that they have earned it. Mike K. has never pioneered a church,has not brought a person to church in a longtime. if rw has done what he says he has done. Why for the last 16 years. Has he has stopped working. Driving around spieing on Churches is not working. He gets fed,housed,drove around,payed. Yeah,that is such hard work!
Ask Mr.Otto was Rev. Otto. fine our the Real story behind there marriage. she is no remarried.
Julie Bowles was encouraged to divorce her husband. They were not even married a year. He decided not to go to BS,still had a heart to serve God. rw was trying to break up the Devonshire's. Why,because sister wanted to have a baby. rw even put rev. Devonshire up there for the ladies to look at. As if a slave on display,come and put in a bid ladies. You could be married to so and so.
On and on it goes. Sorry sir,your the one that has your big blinders on. You do not want to see the truth when it is right in front of your face. Stay in denial. It will make you feel better. As rw continues on doing what he does best. Ruin other people's live's. MK follow in his footsteps.
Just remember this. If you do ever leace ntcc. Lies will be spread about you. I did witness FIRST HAND. And it was done by Kinson. Where was he getting his information,rw!!! Kinson was out on the road at the time.
CM
"What I mean by that is if he leaves town in order to get away from the church, she is not obligated to follow him."
When you say "from the church," do you mean "from NTCC?" Where could he move where there are no churches? There are millions of them in America, and most of them have at least some God fearing members. So would you just assume that he trying to "get away from the church" if he decides to move to a city without an NTCC? And just how would it be determined that he is moving to "get away from the church?" Seems to me that there would be no way to divine his motive unless he expressly confessed one. Why don't you explain exactly what you mean, because I would think that an advocate, like you, of a literal interpetation of scripture would clearly affirm the duty of a wife to follow her husband whithersoever he decides to go, finding fellowship wherever that may be. Do you suppose God is so weak that he can't perfect a saint on his own without the help (or in spite of the usual hindrance) of some religious institution?
"I would be willing to go as far as to say that the people making such allegations are either not telling the whole truth, not telling the truth at all, or don't know all the details concerning the matter."
I made the allegation, and you're right, I don't know every minute detail, because I wasn't there. But my wife was, and she is to this day very circumspect in all she says and does. Her honesty is unimpeachable, as anyone who knows her can attest. So I believe her implicitly when she relates how RW, when she told him she wanted to try to reconcile with her "sinner" first husband, said "how long will you be a martyr to a marriage," and counseled her to leave him.
You are in powerful denial. Many rational and credible people have testified to horrendous treatment, but you just dismiss all of it and continue to support a corrupt system. God help you escape the fog.
CM,
I read your posts, and at times they are very clear and easy to read, and other times, they are somewhat murky. Are you feeling ok?
I want to address the only situation I am familiar with, that is, the one with the Devonshires. Rev. Devonshire was divorced from his wife because she left him. At the time, he really wanted to reconcile the marriage if she would come back to him, but there was some consideration of remarriage to someone else if she would not come back to him. He was living as a bachelor. You make it sound like he was still married and that Pastor was trying to get Rev. Devonshire to marry someone else because his wife wanted a baby. They have a baby now by the way because they got back together and they are doing fine.
Vic,
You make it seem as though the man will just tell his wife he is moving and not tell her why. This is interesting to me because I have always wondered why some people are so secretive with their wife. I was always taught that a husband and wife are a team and they should be completely transparent with one another. I am not an advocate of someone leaving their spouse if the marriage can at all be saved.
To address the phrase in question, "leave the church," by this I am referring to the church, what else would I be referring to? The church is the body of Christ. When you leave a town, where people know you, to go to a town where people don't know you, there is an opportunity that presents itself to stop going to church altogether. This sort of thing happened a lot in the military whin someone would PCS. They knew that when they got to the new duty station, they would be able to avoid any kind of church, including NTCC because no one there would know them or the fact that they ever went to church.
I am not trying to divine the motives of anyone, but I believe that the wife will likely have enough put together based on her relationship with her husband to know what his motives are. He will likely communicate to her why he is moving, if not, she would be pretty silly not to ask him why they are moving.
-concerned minister NTCC
Vic said...
I made the allegation, and you're right, I don't know every minute detail, because I wasn't there. But my wife was, and she is to this day very circumspect in all she says and does. Her honesty is unimpeachable, as anyone who knows her can attest. So I believe her implicitly when she relates how RW, when she told him she wanted to try to reconcile with her "sinner" first husband, said "how long will you be a martyr to a marriage," and counseled her to leave him.
Thank you for at least admitting you don't know the details. Neither do any of us... still.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
"Thank you for at least admitting you don't know the details. Neither do any of us... still."
Jeff said...
If Vic said his wife knew the details and that her recollection is accurate, than it is. If Vic got something from his wife, than in my book when it comes from Vic, it's just like getting it first hand. You can best believe that if my wife tells me something it's just the same as getting it directly from the horses mouth when I write it.
Second: So many people have spoken and written bad things about Devonshire that I'm quite sure he is an abusive guy.
Concerned Minister: You wrote: "At the time, he really wanted to reconcile the marriage if she would come back to him, but there was some consideration of remarriage to someone else if she would not come back to him."
Jeff said...
When you want to reconcile a marriage, your not looking at other woman or giving other women consideration. That is not how it works.
Here is my take on Devonshire. The guy treats his wife like crap just like he has done so many church members. She gets tired of it and leaves. She is insecure and broke and she has no marketable trades so she comes back to the guy. In the process he became a little insecure as well, and decides to give in when she returns and botta boom, botta bing, she comes up pregnant like she wanted all along anyway.
What in the world would RWD parade Devonshire around for anyway? What is he; some kind of match maker?
I can see it now. Devonshire would have wound up marrying one of his ex-wife's friends? Why would RWD want anything to do with that mess? Didn't RWD ever care for Devonshires wife? He must not have to try and perpetrate that mess. I wouldn't want anything to do with that whole Devonshire ordeal so what in the world was RWD doing? Concerned Minister: I don't believe you understand psychology very well. I'm not saying that as a put down. I just believe you don't understand how people operate and their motives.
I would have told Devonshire: "Bud if you want to remarry thats your call, but I'm not getting involved in any shape form or fashion." "I did care for your wife you know Mr. Devonshire" "Have you guys thought about trying to work it out?"
RWD didn't care though. All he cared about was the person who stayed in "HIS CHURCH". You better believe it Concerned Minister.
Jeff
Concerned Minister NTCC,
Once again thank you your input and insight.
Unfortunately, I was relayed the account of J.Boles demise of her first marriage first-hand. So what CM said is true.
Nellashara
What seems to be happening here is what happens many times among disgruntled people. They have become fed up for one reason or another with a company, a boss, a church, an organization, etc. and any information that seems to discredit any of the above becomes very believable. There doesn't even have to be much proof. There can be a partial sentence and you fill in the rest of the blanks. This is the psychology on the whole thing Jeff. Many of your comments about Rev. Devonshire were supposition/filled in blanks.
I visited a church that Rev. Devonshire pastored while I was in the military and he seemed very kind and compassionate. It was an enjoyable time while I was there. The evidence of this account could even be considered anecdotal because he could have been on good behavior while I was there so I could go back to my pastor and say good things, but I doubt that is the case.
I guess I haven't been reading these blogs long enough to know what you are referring to concerning people giving accounts of Rev. Devonshire treating them bad. I can't say wheather any of that is accurate. As far as Pastor wanting to break up the marriage, it had already been done by her.
As far as Vic's story is concerned, he gave very little information. That's all I was pointing out. We still don't know all of the details on that.
Having said all that, I see where this is headed, you will continue to support your side of the arguement and I will continue to see things wrong with your arguement and the fact is that neither one of us knows all the details, neither one of us has the "complete sentence" so all we are doing is filling in blanks.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned minister,
One HUGE difference between me and you. You still have your rose colored glasses on. You still believe in ntcc. thinking there must be some good in the Org. There isn't! Your living a lie. Supporting a Org. that is not there for the people. But there to line there wallets. I took off my rose colored glasses a long time ago. I did listen as I read so MANY personal accounts from people(first hand) the hurt that has been done to them. Even after leaving ntcc the damage has been done. Marriage have been broken up from the mental abuse they are still going through. It doesn't end after leaving ntcc.
Your mistaken when you try to group us as all bitter and angry people. Like folks that get fired from a company. How trival that is. And how complex many of us are. You can talk to five different people that have left ntcc. We can all say different views on ntcc. Some don't talk at all about ntcc,some of us are here to expose a cult,some still have false loyalty,some are still living the cult false standards.
I know for me,I am NOT angry,NOT bitter. I don't want others to fall into there trap like I did. Oh we love you,come to the home for supper,can I pick you up for Church. Faking love and caring to snare us. Taking folks out of the military. Like me,that would have stayed in!
Concerned minister,
your really clueless how we feel. Since your loyal to an Organization. And we are Free Moral agents. We can think for ourselve's. You can pretend you can. In reality you can't. Boils down to ntcc runs your life.
Ex.wear dark suits,wing tips,have your hair parted on the side(slicked back) white shirts only. For casual,slacks and that Hawaiin style shirt that the ministers all wear. What kind of music do you listen to,Only Southern gospel? If your married. Does your wife try and look like Tanya K. A clone of her.
no imitation is not the best compliment. Can you be your OWN person? Or does ntcc control your life?
CM
"Thank you for at least admitting you don't know the details. Neither do any of us... still."
My wife and RW do, though, and I know who's more believable. I also know that her allegations coincide with those of other credible witness. Your denial is what enables smooth operators like RW & company to continue their exploitive ways.
You sound like the type of guy that would believe RW over his own wife. I'm not that way.
"You make it seem as though the man will just tell his wife he is moving and not tell her why. This is interesting to me because I have always wondered why some people are so secretive with their wife. I was always taught that a husband and wife are a team and they should be completely transparent with one another. I am not an advocate of someone leaving their spouse if the marriage can at all be saved."
Any husband who loves his wife would do anything in his power to extract her from the clutches of an abusive "church" like NTCC. Moving to another town is an extreme measure, but extreme situations (like NTCC bondage) require extreme solutions. Of course, the objective of NTCC is to prevent anyone from leaving, despite their reverse psychology "there's the door" pronouncements. They will mischaracterize the actions of the husband and accuse him of trying to "drag her away from God." No, he's trying to drag her away from her exploiters, and good for them both if he succeeds. As long as he doesn't forbid her to go to church, she doesn't really have a biblical case to leave him no matter where he decides to go.
You've been drinking he Koolaid far too long, friend. I suggest relocating to a town where there are no NTCC churches (and not for the purpose of afflicting it with one, either); it will help break your toxic dependency. Hook up with some of the other millions of Christians in the world today and find out just how deluded you've been.
concerned minister,
sometime's you don't need to hear the story from someone's own mouth to know it is true. I am sure you have had that nagging voice telling you something is not right in ntcc. God is trying to get your attention. He tried with me when i was stuck in ntcc. But I would not listen. I was doing Gods work,right! This is where God wants me,right! NOT!
God can tell you!
I don't know if concerned minister was at the conference where devonshire was supposed to get another wife, because it was at this conference that rwd was teaching about how that when a wife leaves a husband he has the right to go and get remarried and he made it very clear that if that wife leaves you, she is deserting and that gives you the right to get a divorce.I think he was speaking to mr. devonshire because his wife was in the process of coming back.
That same week rwd was teaching about how many women didn't want to be in servicemen's home because they want a family and so on and so forth and then he looked into the men's side and said: "if you take her back, she is going to leave you again" I don't remember if he said "thus saith the Lord."
It was in this conference that devonshire was asked to stand up so that the singles ladies would look at him because he was looking for a wife.
Anonymous said...
"I don't know if concerned minister was at the conference where devonshire was supposed to get another wife"
Jeff said...
Doesn't that sound great Concerned Minister? How did you like that account? Now that was a FIRST HAND account. RWD had an agenda and it certainly wasn't to bring anyone back together. One day Concerned Minister, you will understand fully where all of us are coming from; I hope for your sake.
Jeff
Sounds just like a butcher block devonshire was put on. Twirl around,let the ladies get a good look at you. Like a piece of meat!how disgusting!
Find out so much filth that goes on in ntcc. Think you have heard it all. Then find out something so disgusting,degrading. For devonshire and for the women in the Church. You had better look!
oh and concerned minister,
sister devonshire left because she wanted a baby. I know for a long time before she left. She had the DESIRE of her heart was to have a child.
Who knows now,maybe kids are allowed to be in a servicemen's work. They are being allowed oversea's. First the Jordan's and now the devonshire's. Keep them happy,so he has people that will even go oversea's. Poor foriegners,they don't even know what ntcc is all about. Probably why rw has a burden for oversea's. They are innocent and know nothing of the ugliness that goes on in ntcc.
CM
I remember that conference Anon where RW told that man to stand up so that all the single ladies could see him. Wasn't he suppose to be an evangelist at that time? Also, I do remember someone saying that she wanted children and because of the preaching about servicemen's homes and not having children in them, that became an issue for her.
Dear Brethren,
Greetings in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
When I saw the 'graduation' pictures, my first impression was the worldliness (gang signs, mugging for the camera, etc.) was staged/solicited, so the pictures could be posted to show everyone how 'normal' NTCC is, and once again try to ‘prove’ how wrong the combined negative witness is…merely more damage control and conscience soothing propaganda to keep their constituents in line and on board; to continue to shade them from the soothing light of Biblical truth and Christian reality.
A quick review of my ‘graduation’ pictures show a staid event, with tired but earnest smiles (the smile we all learned in soul winning and visitation) affixed to our collective face.
NTCC hasn't changed...they are still hypocritical, reactive, etc.--and driven by their own damage control machine--none of this indicates God is leading NTCC. You say NTCC has changed? Why, because you have been told you can wear shorts now (while knickers on males is still simultaneously preached and taught against)? Why? Because NTCC says they have changed?
Yet, the entire landscape of NTCC’s storied past is littered with ministerial instances of pride, hatred, pedophilia, homosexuality, pornography, drug and alcohol use and abuse, adultery, fornication, lying, gossip, revenge, slander, libel, course jesting, theft, un-professionalism, greed, covetousness, excess, double mindedness, lawlessness, hypocrisy, lasciviousness, lust, strife, worldliness, lapses (or lack) of ethics, etc…most all of which continues to this day. We don’t have to prove any of this, as this is part of the lore NTCC ‘shares’ about those who leave. But, as long as you remain, NTCC will keep your sins hidden.
☺ Can you remember the last time you sinned? Pastor Davis can’t either.
☺ How many 13 year olds did you molest when you were 23? None! Too bad, it’s OK if you marry them after the requisite three year test drive.
☺ Rev. Olson can now rest easy, since Pastor Davis never finagled a ménage à quatre out of any of the churches he Pastored. Though not faithful to anyone else in NTCC (or the family of God), Rev. Olson has been unswervingly faithful to Pastor Davis--in the end this is all that will matter, because it will be what he is judged for.
Look at us, NTCC is normal now! Look at us, NTCC is worldly now! Look at us, NTCC is just as everyone else! See, the witness against us is false!
We haven’t compromised, nothings changed; you all just misunderstood the reams of NTCC ‘policy’ for the last four decades. We may have had some problems in the past, but we are better now (are you finally beginning to get it). We have changed, really we have! Just ask us, and we’ll tell ya!
What a relief! NTCC is winning! I wonder if they will give me permission to start attending again? I have become personae non gratae for reasons they have yet to share with me (though they haven’t been averse to sharing it with most everyone else, and though they can easily contact me). NTCC has thus far severed all ties with me, in spite of my repeated overtures toward them. I will just keep trying.
NTCCers will gulp down any negative witness against anyone not Rev./Missionary/Schismatic/COB/Schismatic/Senior Pastor/Schismatic/Doctor/Schismatic/Dean/Schismatic/Apostle/Schismatic/Pastor/Schismatic/Prophet/Schismatic/Teacher/Schismatic Davis…or Pedophile/Rev./Secretary/President/Dean/Pastor/Rev./Pastor/Rev./CEO/Senior Pastor Kekel…or Enabler/Rev./Enabler/Doctor/Enabler/CEO/Enabler/COB/Enabler Olson, etc. The 3-witnesses-to-the-exact-same-event 'policy' is only enforced when deflecting the recurring witness against the leadership. Yet, there are scores of online witnesses to the exact same event(s), which NTCC will also not receive. C’est la NTCC; they aren’t renowned for their consistency.
Remember, keep the blinders on, you’re winning! That nagging reasonable voice of doubt is just the Devil. You own experiences cannot be trusted.
Yours In Him/In his Service,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
PDQ,
I don't understand. You made overtures to NTCC as an exNTCC minister to what end or for what purpose?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister: I'm sure pdq will answer however I'm going to give my input until he does.
I think what he was saying is that entirely too many NTCC ministers have bones in the closet. Not all by any means but too many. Many of these guys will condemn and judge their church members for the same iniquities that they have committed themselves while they were supposedly saved. Many of these guys have been exposed. There were witnesses to many of their acts. Acts such as the ones that pdq referenced.
As I read pdq's list certain folk and acts came to mind. What pdq was saying is that many of these judgmental NTCC ministers are anything but guiltless. At least that is my take.
NTCC Minister; this is what happens. We leave the NTCC and automatically we get smeared and slandered. It is our natural instinct to respond back with stories that expose the same ministers who have committed character assignation and slander toward us.
Are we wrong for doing so? Look to the Bible. Is that not the same thing that Jesus did when the pharisees and scribes attempted to assassinate his character? YES! We don't by any means claim to be equal to or the same as Jesus. When the pharisees went after Jesus he called them hypocrites and Jesus exposed their sins and that is exactly what we are doing. I believe it's what pdq was doing.
Here is the moral of the story NTCC folks. If you have bones in your closet you better be very careful not to smear the wrong persons character. When Oberhauser went after Sis. Haynes he drew first blood. Then he decided to assassinate my character. As a result I have no problem telling just how sorry of a pastor he was and I have given examples. The NTCC leadership may never act on it, but it sure is embarrassing when your contemporaries look at you and they know exactly just how sorry you are.
Jeff
Thanks for the response Jeff. I'm wondering why PDQ is not pleased that NTCC as an organization has severed ties with him?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
That one I can't answer.
Jeff
"Thanks for the response Jeff. I'm wondering why PDQ is not pleased that NTCC as an organization has severed ties with him?"
Why do you assume he has severed ties? Perhaps he is not an ex-minister. It's best not to jump to conclusions if the situation is unclear.
Vic,
PDQ said,
"What a relief! NTCC is winning! I wonder if they will give me permission to start attending again? I have become personae non gratae for reasons they have yet to share with me (though they haven’t been averse to sharing it with most everyone else, and though they can easily contact me). NTCC has thus far severed all ties with me, in spite of my repeated overtures toward them. I will just keep trying."
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
ntcc minister,
Just a theory. pdq could want some conclusion,why that they have severed tie's with him. What he did to be not allowed in ntcc anymore. Which is funny. Don't they love to say we love everyone. All are welcome. No matter what you look like,act like,ect. ALL ARE WELCOLME!
I know when I left I wanted answers to my questions. Questions that had bothered me for many years. But never had the courage to ask. Afraid I would be told there is the door! So i kept my mouth shut. After leaving I felt I could now ask without repercussions on me or my husband.
Guess what I got,the run around,alot of double talk from the poltician himself(MK). I found out,that ntcc will never answer my questions. They will NEVER post there so called policies on there web site. They will not answer questions. Without talking out of the side of there mouth.
pdq,I would give up on them. Your better off without being involved in that cult.
CM
Well, NTCC apparently doesn't send out those great "disfellowship letters" like they used to, so how is one to know when they've been kicked out if they don't tell him? It looks like PDQ is seeking information about why he is being shunned, but no one will reply to him. Maybe Kekel could address this on his blog. Anyway, it isn't possible to clearly discern his status from what he has shared so far, although I seem to remember some posts where he indicated that he is still an NTCC minister.
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