Thread #42 As stated in the previous thread, the definition of the word communism is: "a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party."
This is significant because my assessment is quite legitimate. Let's first talk about the totalitarian state of the NTCCs mandates, concerning controlling ones social activities. Also; how can the NTCC be considered a "totalitarian state"? Definition: exercising control over the freedom, will, or thought of others; authoritarian; autocratic
The NTCC is exactly that. PROOF!!! This is on page 5 of the NTCS handbook. "Once you arrive at that Seminary, all correspondence with your previous church, its members and Pastor should cease." "If you need to correspond with someone in another church, simply inform Rev. Kekel of your intentions." Page 9 of the handbook: "Internet access is not allowed in any dorm at any time" Page 10 of the handbook: "Family events, such as weddings, graduation and such like , are not valid reasons for absence." "In the event of Illness, you are required to obtain a doctor's excuse and must do so within tow days of your absence. (If you are sick enough to miss class, you need to see a doctor)." "By signing the pledge you agree to abide by the guidelines and policies of the seminary, including obtaining permission for certain activities, (listed below)." Page 11 of the handbook: "All students are to go directly home after classes, this is for the purpose of typing, studying and completing their class work while the lectures are still fresh in your mind. Fridays and Saturdays are exempt from this rule" "Fellowship is limited to two couples, without exception. Obtain permission before issuing invitations. Married students are not allowed to invite dorm students to their houses. Periodically inform Rev. Kekel of your baby-sitting arrangements." "Courtship is permitted during Sunday Evening Fellowships, but only by permission." Page 12 of the handbook: "The patronizing of professional sporting events is not allowed. Playing cards, television sets, classical music and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden." Page 14 of the handbook: Permission to quit a job is a pre-requisite; i.e. before you say anything to your employer.
Jeff said...
Is not all social activity controlled by the NTCC? They tell you who you can socialize with and when, what family events you are allowed to attend, how many people you can socialize with, what church's you can socialize with, who you have to ask permission from, when you have to go home, where you are allowed to access the Internet from, what sporting events you can attend, where you have to be to listen to radio preachers / page 12, what to do if you get sick and how!!!! Tell me of one other college that you actually pay to attend, that makes you bring a doctors excuse if you are sick and mandates that you go to a doctor. Totalitarian all the way and therefor communist all the way. All social activity is controlled by the totalitarian state and don't say that is only for seminary students. Hogwash. It wouldn't matter if it was for seminary students only because it is a communist, totalitarian method used specifically to gain total control of everything that NTCC folks do. It is also designed to suppress information flow which is called "censorship" within a communist party.
I was told by an NTCC pastor years ago not to go to my God Fathers funeral. I was told by Mayers who could babysit my child about 7 years ago. I was told who I could fellowship with and who's house I could go to by Ramirez years ago. I was told by LD Jones that my job was unacceptable. I was told who I could or couldn't date and what RACE. I doesn't matter who these rules are for because it is a bunch of garbage for church members or seminary students to follow any of this stuff because the NTCC is a totalitarian, communist organization and they fit the description and definition to a tea.
The real acronym for the NTCC is the NTTCCC: New Testament Totalitarian Christian Communist Church. They proved such an accusation by the existence of their very own handbook. Tell me of one other institution, organization, or country in the world other communist China that have such rules and censorship. Iran maybe, the old USSR, Cambodia, North Korea, Iraq under Saddam Hussein and the baathist party? READ THE NTCS HANDBOOK because it is totally absurd. It is Mike Kekel and RWDs attempt to control every facet of your life. Why? Because if they control your life they control your money!!!
a system of social organization in which all "economic" and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party." In part 3 I will cover the economic control using none other than; "The NTCS Handbook"
Jeff
143 comments:
I almost forgot. How come television sets are not allowed? Kekel can have one in his house so Grant can watch DVDs. Don't tell me there is a fundamental difference between a CRT TV and an flat screen LCD, because there is not!! They can both be used to watch a movie. That is garbage and it is insulting when an NTCC jerk suggest such a thing.
Jeff
Cash only please hmmm.
These are men and women that God called to the ministry and you can't trust them to write a good check. I would impose a vetting process.
Jeff Collins said...
I almost forgot. How come television sets are not allowed? Kekel can have one in his house so Grant can watch DVDs.
*********************
I've heard this somewhere before, can anyone validate the TV thing?
Grant Kekel showed some of his friends how he could watch shows and they went back and told their parents. I was personally told by my NTCC pastor that DVDs were acceptable because Kinson and Kekel said so.
The fact is I don't blame them but I hate the double standard and the fact that for years RWD and his pastors placed you in hell because of any involvement with such devices. I was taught that by every NTCC pastor I ever had. 6 to be exact. The student handbook even proves it. Look what it says:
"television sets, and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden."
What? any other such immorality? A DVD player with an LCD is no different than a VCR with a CRT TV attached. NO DIFFERENT!!
DOUBLE STANDARDS all to suit Grant Kekels needs and no doubt Mike and Tanya's as well. Who do you think allowed their son to have DVDs.
Jeff
That all came out after the HOP split because Denis was slinging mud over the very topic of DVD usage within the NTCC.
It was a topic that was definitely discussed between me and the NTCC pastor that I was with at the time; pastor Hunt.
Even though Denis was a crook just like RWD and Kekel, Denis was right. There was a double standard and a compromise based on what RWD had taught for decades.
It's obvious that Kinson and Kekel never agreed with RWDs teachings that dealt with the abstinence of TV exposure. When those two got enough power they put a stop to all that NO TV stuff, at least for themselves and their families and they did make it known for all it is worth. Once again, A TV with VCR IS NO DIFFERENT THAN A DVD PLAYER so don't give me that garbage you proNTCC folks.
Jeff
Give Denis some props. He EXPOSED NTCC.
If Denis did not split from NTCC, it was inevitable that some other preacher would.
Denis was RIGHT for whatever NTCC was wrong with your life!!!
MLJ
Jeff, is IHOP what NTCC used to be???
MLJ
i wouldn't give denis any props-
thats like one murderer accusing the other murderer to be less moral due to his use of an un-registered fire arm while he used a legal fire arm
: )))
they are both murderers- no props...
t
There were a few people on FactNet back in the day who left HOP as they said Rev Denis became extremely controlling over every.single.thing. I remember reading that post.
HOP hasn't expanded as far as churches are concerned, I don't think.
You know, reading that student handbook, there should have been a disclaimer at the bottom of the last page in itty bitty letters. It would say something like:
' Because we can't trust you to make decisions on your own, we must enforce these rules so we know what you are doing and who you were talking too and who was at your house. We here at NTCS want to make sure you stay saved like us. These rules are here to make sure of that.
Jesus loves you'
Hmmm last time I checked, the Bible school students weren't 5 years old.
I can understand rules as a basic guideline, all Bible colleges have them, ya know, but that nonsense in that handbook was a bit much.
"The patronizing of motion picture theaters, bowling alleys, gambling casinos, pinball and video arcades, pool halls, skating rinks, bars and dancing establishments or organized professional sporting events is not allowed. Playing cards, television sets, classical, pop, country, rock or rap music, worldly dancing, on or off campus, or listening to radio preachers on campus, lying, stealing, cursing or obscene language, homosexuality, mixed bathing, tobacco in any form, alcoholic beverages, obscene books or magazines, and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden:"
Wow--does the association of listening to classical music with lying, stealing, cursing, homosexuality, and "any other such immorality" produce severe cognitive dissonance in anyone else? This is a perfect example of how overboard and absurd NTCC's rules are (it always struck me as weird, because a significant percentage of the tunes in the hymnal we used there were composed by the likes of Beethoven, Bach, and Brahms). "Oooh, I'm telling Pastor--you were listening to the Brandenburg Concertos! You need to get right with God!"
Notice also that (presumably secular) country music is similarly condemned and proscribed, yet somehow the president of this "seminary" was spotted at (and has confessed to attending) a bluegrass festival himself! Mike used to rip out some killer Hendrix and Jimmy Page licks back in the day when we lived together in the dorm; it's a shame his talent is wasted playing drivel like "Crank up the Music and Let's Have Church." Not exactly the way to leave one's mark, musically.
The rules are for children. Notice the handbook says preparing youth for truth. Grown men don't need a baby sitter and if you can't trust someone who is called to the ministry to write a good check then why are they there? Apparently there have been quite a few hot checks in the past. Trust seems to be a big issue in the ntcc or maybe cash is just more convenient. The ntcc wants to become your conscience so that God doesn’t have too. The problem with that is when you are on your own you have to rely on something you’re not familiar with. The question you need to answer is it the voice of God or ntcc? The two are not one. Man up spoon feeding is over.
Concerned minister,
Care to chime in on the TV topic?
NTCS Handbook said..."...television sets, and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden."
So, when will the scriptures condemning these practices be forthcoming?...It has been three years (2006) since this 'handbook' came out.
But, this is also about how long we have been waiting for promised information on NTCC's 'official' website and NTCC's Wikipedia article.
It's a good thing we are all patient, and don't expect too much from NTCC; as far as NTCC accountability, NTCC timeliness, and NTCC keeping their word.
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
Jeff, don't insult China or North Korea by comparing them with NTCC. You pretty much know what to expect in China or North Korea. New Testament "Compromise" Church...it depends on which way the wind blows.
Dawn wrote...
"I can understand rules as a basic guideline, all Bible colleges have them, ya know, but that nonsense in that handbook was a bit much."
Jeff responded...
Very well written Dawn, very well written.
Jeff
Bro J asked...
Jeff, is IHOP what NTCC used to be???
Jeff said...
Not doubt, and probably even worse it that is possible. Denis was something else. He may have been right about the NTCC but he was just the pot calling the kettle black. Denis was just as bad. He got all his ways from RWD and he told me so. What he said to me was that he learned a lot from RWD and that would be the one thing that he would miss with leaving the NTCC.
So you figure? Doesn't leave much to the imagination. IHOP is no more than NTCC-lite or visa versa. Main focus; go after the soldiers because they have money and follows orders. PERIOD.
Jeff
Here is an example of a Christian College's Student Standards...
"Pensacola Christian College is committed to the highest standards of Christian conduct and holds that the Bible—the infallible, divine Word of God—provides the basis for that conduct...
In today’s society this includes avoiding such practices as gambling, dancing, profanity, obscenity, abuse of drugs, the use of tobacco and alcohol, and attendance at movie theaters...
A student information booklet is sent in June to each new student regarding upcoming enrollment at PCC."
I am sure I could find many other such examples... but what good would it do???
pdq...
"...television sets, and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden."
"Any other such immorality" is that which falls under the category of "as set forth in scripture."
I know it is difficult to interpret what you read when you already have a bias against it. Let's just try to look at it at least somewhat objectively. Some of the concerns posted here are realistic and even thoughtful, but let us not lose control. Some of the rules and "guidelines" do lend themselves to suspicion and misunderstandings. I will admit that.
-concerned minister NTCC
Anonymous said...
Here is an example of a Christian College's Student Standards...
"Pensacola Christian College is committed to the highest standards of Christian conduct and holds that the Bible—the infallible, divine Word of God—provides the basis for that conduct...
********************
Go to their website, they still fall short of your standards and actually they would not be saved according to your holiness doctrine. Don't come on here and blow smoke.
L. Travis,
"...they still fall short of your standards"
REALLY?
"...they would not be saved according to your holiness doctrine."
Jesus is the One who determines who makes it to heaven, and who does not. The Bible gives us His guidelines for that.
"Don't come on here and blow smoke."
Wow... why are you threatening me??
Why are you using such a harsh tone towards me???
I thought I was bringing a valid point about Christian College Handbooks, and here you are telling me I have to leave.
I know my opinion will not be valid with most who read this blog because I am not a "RA-RA-RA... TEAR DOWN and TRASH OUT everything about NTCC" Yes-MAN.
However, I would like to state my personal opinion for the record:
"L Travis seems to have a pretty totalitarian; dictatorial, authoritarian and communistic attitude towards any and all dissenting points of view on this blog."
Anonymous said...
Wow... why are you threatening me??
Why are you using such a harsh tone towards me???
**************
First of all I did not threaten you, I have never threaten anyone on this blog plus you can't threaten someone who is anonymous because you have no name. I didn't tell you to leave, it's great how you twist my words ntcc style.
Anonymous said...
L. Travis,
"...they still fall short of your standards"
REALLY?
*****************
Yes. The point I making you can't compare ntcc college to others because I don't think it is the same. The college you pointed out is conservative but not by your standards.
Jeff,
The college I go to (Liberty University) is pretty conservative and has rules called the "Liberty Way". All kinds of students go there from atheists to pentacostals, they are all expected to abide by their rules....even when off campus.
Example of some rules are :
4 reprimands + $10.00 Fine
* Absence from required meeting (Convocation, etc.)
* Disturbance/non-participation during Convocation
* Dress/hair code violation (male or female)
* Failure to respond to official call slip within 48 hours (for Student Affairs use only)
* Horseplay (plus financial restitution)
* Improper personal contact (anything beyond hand-holding) / Improper social behavior
* Improper sign out
* Music code violation
* Out of the residence halls after curfew
I think the point that Jeff was trying to make was that the rules are written in the Bible School Pamphlet, but there is a problem with double standards. I don't see the the difference between a laptop and a television or a movie theater.
I am not trying to find fault with the school rules...every school needs them. But if you are going to fly the banner of Holiness, you should do it all the way.
Even though I love God and my family, I have some NTCCers check me off in the sinner category. They tell me if I am going to be a sinner, I might as well go all the way...whatever that is supposed to mean. I would never tell someone who is trying to do the right thing in life to willing go sin. It makes you no better than the bar tender or drug dealer! Doesn't that make you an accessory to a crime against Heavenly Father?
Perhaps I am reading the into the statement too deeply...
Nellashara
Yet again find find the Hammer & Sickle treatment from Comrade Travis.
Any and all voices of dissent are hammered down; often with scorn and ridicule.
Then the dissenting opinions are slashed to shreds with harvest-sickles at the hands of the anti-ntcc establishment.
"Any other such immorality" is that which falls under the category of "as set forth in scripture."
Really? It appears to me that the statement is ambiguous at best, and could be interpreted either way. Precise expression is not one of the NTCC leadership's strengths. Based on their observed longstanding behavior, it is reasonable to expect the most restrictive interpretation is the valid one.
no one is tearing down or trashing ntcc or anyone within.
people are just pointing out their hypocrisy is all.
didn't Jesus do that ?
Anonymous said...
Yet again find find the Hammer & Sickle treatment from Comrade Travis.
***********
That's funny.
Jeff,
It just hit me!!
The NTCC Handbook standards and rules to live by should just be for NTCC Ministers,
NOT CHURCH MEMBERS!!!
If NTCC would follow this guidance, I do not think we would have all of the double standards that we currently witness.
As a Minister in the NTCC, you should be reaching out to a lost and dying world with the hand of Jesus.
As a Minister in the NTCC, you better expect all facets of your life to be in the limelight, and there is NO room for error. To whom much is given, much is expected.
I EXPECT ALL NTCC MINISTERS TO LIVE BY THE NTCC BOOK OF DOCTRINAL GUIDANCE AND NTCC MINISTERS ONLY.
Church members cannot be placed on the same pedastal as the preacher, for not just anyone can be the preacher.
The Man of God, like Rev Davis, should be blameless, just like Rev Davis, who cannot remember the last time he sinned.
The Man of God should dwell in the Holiness of Holiess, just like Rev Davis (Of course he dwells in a Mansion).
The Man of God should remove ALL APPERANCES and PERCEPTIONS of EVIL.
'Ol Slewfoot should be attacking the Man of God on double GO nonstop each and everyday. The Man of God should be a spotless lamb, a witness, a testimony of Christ in the flesh, just like Rev Kekel, who is also blameless and who was about 21 years old the last time he sinned with a minor.
- Just some food for thought.
Bro Johnson
Ouch!! Those last comments poured some SALT in the wound!!
OOOUUUUUUUUCCCHHHHHHHHHH.
Hello!
Can I get a Witness??
I have read the comments and now I have one. There is no doubt that other colleges and seminaries have rules. That's to be expected. The NTCC has gone overboard with their rules and as Nellashara stated rightfully so that there is a double standard which is also part of my grievance.
Come on Anonymous. Just like L Travis said. The people in the college that you referenced wouldn't even be considered saved by NTCC standards. Internet access not allowed in the Dorm? What kind of restriction is that? No family weddings for four years unless your family schedules their wedding around your NTCS schedule? What kind of garbage is that? You can't invite a single person to your house when you are married? Having to ask permission to socialize? I'm sure some of these other schools have rules and I am also sure that they don't go to the extreme that the NTCC does.
And even if there is a school out there somewhere just like the NTCC that doesn't make it right. Just because there are other thieves out there doesn't make me right if I am a thief!! And how many of these other schools aren't even accredited? As my wife pointed out, most rules from other schools apply to folks living in the dorms. What about all these crazy rules that the NTCCs made that apply to folks that don't live in the dorms.
Telling you that you have to go home directly after school? Telling you who you can socialize with and when and how many people? Garbage. Hey once again I didn't write the dictionary and I didn't devise the definition for the words "Communism and Totalitarianism". It's found in the dictionary and the NTCC fits the definitions to a tea. It is what it is. The NTCC is over controlling and that is the bottom line.
Jeff.
By the way, I have some good news. A mother of a serviceman was reading this blog recently. She gave her military son my phone number. He called me today. He had some questions about the NTCC which I gladly answered of course. He is living in a serviceman's home but based on the conversation that we had he won't be much longer.
As Olson likes to say, "we're winning".
There is a cause. Leave the GI's alone NTCC. Stop trying to bait them into your church so you can convince them to leave an otherwise good military career. You only go after GI's for three reasons anyway.
Because they are young and impressionable, they have been taught to be obedient and you can control them, and they have a guaranteed job so you can bleed them of every dime you can get out of them until you can convince them to attend your non-accredited school so that they can go on and perpetuate the same with other GI's.
Maybe that was three and a half. Mom was concerned about her SON. This blog is working. The truth is getting out. He will find another church to attend.
Jeff
Jeff,
Thats is awesome...praise God!
Finally, Comrade Jeff Stollins has spoken...
What a heart warming and touching story... the heroic leader has rescued yet another soul.
You may be convinced that you have done the right thing; however; I am not convinced that you are worthy of such praise.
Jeff, I think your little story is just more propaganda from the Hammer & Sickle Anti-NTCC establishment.
You and Comrade Travis contend that PCC and Liberty College fall short of "my holiness" standard...
It has nothing to do with "my standard" or "Pastor Davis's standard" or even your own "Hammer & Sickle Establishment's standard."
The Word of God is the standard by which we shall all be judged.
May the Lord help me not to justify the wicked nor condemn the righteous. That is my prayer.
My honest advice to you would be to consider incorperating that into your prayer life.
As a supporter of NTCC, I apologize for any harm done to you & your family as a result of your involvement in NTCC.
It is usually very easy to spot those who hold grudges. Their grudge is a burden and it causes them to moan, and groan, and complain about the source of thier grudge.
Ask the Lord to forgive those who have done you wrong, and you will find forgiveness for yourself.
Ask the Lord to have mercy on those who have hurt you, and the Lord will grant you mercy for the hurt you have brought to others.
I am also interested to know "What Happened to Tracy's Blog???"
To me it seems as if she has moved on to bigger and better things. I am happy for her.
With Love,
Anonymous
It is usually very easy to spot those who hold grudges. Their grudge is a burden and it causes them to moan, and groan, and complain about the source of thier grudge.
Ask the Lord to forgive those who have done you wrong, and you will find forgiveness for yourself.
Ask the Lord to have mercy on those who have hurt you, and the Lord will grant you mercy for the hurt you have brought to others
Ntcc fan said.
Only thing wrong with that. Many of us do not hold so called grudge's. Or have any bitter or angry thoughts concerning ntcc. That does not mean I agree with there tatics,or beliefs. Ntcc standards are not Biblical based. But based on rw opinion and things that have happened in HIS past. So because something happened to him. We should all have a rule to follow. And miss out on any enjoyment. Because of rw opinions. He is not the man of God you think he is.
I can ask God to help me forgive ntcc for what they have done to me and many others. That does not mean I have to stop EXPOSING them. I come on here to Expose ntcc. So those like that solider will escape there cluthches. Or Never grace there doors!
The evil that goes on will not stop. Just because I forgive ntcc and the harm the do and CONTINUE To do to Gods Creation.
CM
CM,
Are you the same person who wanted to boycott Walmart about a year ago?
If not, then I am sorry for thinking you were someone else.
Boycott Walmart. Sorry got the wrong person. I frequent Walmart on a daily basis.
CM
NTCS Handbook said..."...television sets, and any other such immorality as set forth in the scripture is forbidden."
pdq said..."So, when will the scriptures condemning these practices be forthcoming?...It has been three years (2006) since this 'handbook' came out."
Anonymous said..."Any other such immorality" is that which falls under the category of "as set forth in scripture."
While I can appreciate anonymous' heroic attempt to misinterpret the NTCS Student Handbook, in defense of NTCC...the word "such" in the above quote ties this whole 'policy' together, as does "and any other." Even without clarifying commas after ‘immorality’ and ‘scripture.’
Though not accredited in any way, Pastor Davis’ crew is not a dumb bunch. If NTCC wanted to say what anonymous avers, they would have written it differently. Off the top of my head I can come up with two alternates that jibe with anonymous’ ‘knee-jerk defensive interpretation’…
• These prohibitions are in (EDITORS NOTE: more accurately ‘an’) addition to the ones found in scripture.
• The previous listed forbidden activities (and any other such) are in (EDITORS NOTE: more accurately ‘an’) addition to the immorality clearly labeled as such in scripture (EDITORS NOTE: They could use this one if they wanted to still use ‘immorality’ and ‘such’ or ‘and any other such’ and ‘forbidden’).
These two example caveats are clearer, and more in line with what anonymous wants us to believe NTCC ‘meant,’ made additionally so by being presented as a separate sentence.
So, from listening to radio preachers on campus (this is also a recent change, we were told no radio preachers at all) to smoking cigarettes (Pastor Davis has told us all many times...there is no sin in smoking; you can still be a Christian and smoke; you can still get saved and keep smoking; you can stay saved while continuing to smoke…this is part of his oft shared testimony), this handbook tells its readers: NTCC has scripture backing the listed prohibitions (and any other such), we just didn't provide them.
Maybe these NTCC truths (and any other such) are self evident? Maybe they were trying to save space to keep costs (and any other such) down? Maybe this is another 'trap' (similar to Rev. Kekel's blog and chat groups) to identify the disgruntled (and any other such), at the onset of there ministry in NTCC...as Barney Fife would say, "Nip it in the bud."
I would just like to see these referenced 'scriptures' (and any other such). NTCC often claims scripture backing for all that is taught and done (and any other such). Yet rarely provide it, even in preaching and teaching (and any other such). When they do provide scripture (and any other such), how they connect it to their ‘doctrine’ du jour is usually so nebulous and/or so convoluted (and any other such), that only the mind-numbed (and any other such) will gulp it down, the rest can't help but ask for clarification (and any other such), or just walk out (and any other such).
Yours (and any other such) In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
"Pastor Davis has told us all many times...there is no sin in smoking; you can still be a Christian and smoke; you can still get saved and keep smoking; you can stay saved while continuing to smoke…this is part of his oft shared testimony)"
PDQ, in my humble opinion, this sounds like a vain attempt for Davis to justify a bad habit.
Let's now replace smoking with bluegrass and football: you can still be a Christian and attend bluegrass festivals /play football; you can still get saved and keep attending bluegrass festivals / play football; you can stay saved while continuing to attend bluegrass festivals / playing football.
The model works!!!
I strongly believe smoking is a sin, Hanna even preached "When you get daved you will put that dirty weed down!!"
Bro Johnson
Get Saved, not daved!!
Bro Johnson
Anonymous said...
Finally, Comrade Jeff Stollins has spoken...
Jeff said...
LOL. Anonymous: I got to give it to you. You have a good sense of humor. Jeff Stollins! Ha, ha, ha. I actually did get a good laugh out of that.
Signed,
Comrade Jeff Stollins
Comrade Anonymous wrote...
"I am also interested to know "What Happened to Tracy's Blog???"
Jeff Stollins wrote...
Look at the time frame that she shut down her blog and the time frame that mine started. Hey Comrade: They are sort of the same, have you figured that out? It's call passing the baton Comrade Valishnicloph. Ha, ha.
And guess what? When I get sick of this someone else will have a exNTCC blog also.
I am happy for her also. She fought a good fight and won many battles and then a change of command took place and now Comrade Jeff Stollins is in the battle and as old Comrade Olson always says: We're winning.
Comrade Jeff Stollins Povlotshki.
Ha, ha.
Anonymous Comrade wrote...
"My honest advice to you would be to consider incorperating that into your prayer life."
Jeff Stollins replied...
My honest advise to you "Comrade" is that in case you haven't figured it out, I am not interested in your advise. Thanks anyway.
Hey Comrade; you also wrote:
"It has nothing to do with "my standard" or "Pastor Davis's standard" or even your own "Hammer & Sickle Establishment's standard. The Word of God is the standard by which we shall all be judged."
Jeff said...
You're kidding right? The standards in the NTCC have changed so many times they need a GPS navigation system for every time they change direction. Examples:
1. Shorts on men are a sin and immodest, shorts on men are not a sin or immodest.
2. Finger nail and toe nail polish is wrong then it's not wrong.
3. TV is wrong, then its not wrong.
4. Going to blue grass festivals is wrong, then it is not wrong.
5. The internet is the devilnet then it is the internet again.
6. Computers are unnecessary and sinful, then they are necessary and not sinful.
7. Tight pants on men are immodest and sinful then they are ok if you are a high school football player and your name is Grant Kekel.
8. Desiring wealth and assets draws you away from Gods will unless you have Kekel or Davis as your last name.
9. Tight dresses are immodest and sinful unless your name is T. Kekel.
Do I need to go on?
Davis and Kekels standards which supposedly came from God change every time the wind blows or as they desire to suit their own needs. Oh I forgot; God changes his mind every time the wind blows. NOT. Davis simply never got that stuff from God in the first place or he is living in compromise; one or the other. And I don't follow someone like that and if you continue to, having the knowledge that I do; which you do, than you are blind also. If the blind lead the blind both shall fall in ditch so as a result I am not interested in your advise but I do like your humor "COMRADE". Ha, ha.
Jeff Stollins
Anonymous Obituary:
The Hammer & Sickle of the Anti-NTCC Establishment has beaten down and slashed to shreds yet another lone voice of dissent.
After having sound spiritual advise fall upon the deaf ears of Comrade Stollins...
A knock came at the door in the middle of the night, after a brief struggle the voice of dissent was thrown off a bridge.
However, their was a brief mention in the Daily Blogda about someone being blind and falling into a ditch.
That was great Comrade. Ha, ha, ha.
We will drive them out of our motherland, blogsphereia. The dissidents can not stand against Stollins and his comrades.
Jeffseph Stollins
Jeff Collins said...
That was great Comrade. Ha, ha, ha.
We will drive them out of our motherland, blogsphereia. The dissidents can not stand against Stollins and his comrades.
Jeffseph Stollins
****************
Iosif Vissarionovich
Иосиф Виссарионович Сталин
Comrade Jeffseph Stollins
I'm going underground.
Comrade ин Travsky
Comrade Travsky: The dissidents have not retaliated to my onslaught. I've dealt a serious blow to their moral and esprit de-corps. The enemy must be regrouping comrade Travsky: Are the missiles prepared to be fired Travsky? We will crush the enemy and send them running scared out of the motherland.
Prepare the troops Travsky,
Vladimir Jeffseth Stollins
OK- around 1976 they had a woman come to the pulpit and the main preacher asked her why women would wear necklaces- with a diamond pendant, etc.. to draw attention to their bosom? yes! OK, that's right? A short while later the 2 main preachers kids wore- what? diamond chain necklaces! and bo-jangles of wrist bracelets.
The handbook forbade sheer blouses- ok? then who wore one? you-know-who- the main preacher's wife! Its sinful to be petting in public- no touching- right? who does it? the main preachers daughter. Now if you can't control your own house- how can you control God's? oh wait- there's always and exception to the rule, if you make the rules. What's that old saying- Rule 1- the leader is always right- Rule 2- if the leader is wrong refer to rule 1.
Don't forget to leave you mind at the door- as it swings both ways.
Jeff could say, "I was on this blog before you came- and I'll be here after you're gone! Salutations to comrade Jeff.
Oh yes, I was castigated as the "pencil-pusher" who did not want to get his hands dirty- a whole conference was told this! What they were not told is how I trod in the wet-poured-concrete in my boots for the first classroom foundation. They didn't tell then my feet got plenty dirty. You see how this slanted gossip affects people's opinions of you? (Selective control of information).
We had to stop house #1 because the upcoming Conference needed some photos of the walls going up on classroom #1, which had not been started. It seemed St Louis folks were being led to believe it was really making progress. The progress was on house #1. (you- know-who's) This "pencil-pusher" spent time hauling up heavy loads of cedar shakes on the roof of house #1. The conf. was not told that at all!
They did not like me- I had no personality- a wet rag- well, after you exterminate a person's SELF being- the id- what's left? a mindless zombie. You really never knew how to act.
I once disputed with main honcho, the "pope" that man had many "cells" in his body. RW said- no we are one cell that just gets bigger. This I think was the tactic- say some dumb thing- see if people try to correct you... right? a mind trick, psych trick... do they still do this? I left 28 years ago-
My wife called him the devil. (That would be Sister Durek). The spy network said that I was saying bad things. I wouldn't hurt a fly.
Yet Brother Jordan, Sr. lambasted me as having a "heart-problem". I found they used a lot of gossip- blast you from the pulpit. Leave town. You never "know them" as the Scriptures dictate. They remain hidden out-of-view in reality. Because Aesop said over familiarity breeds bla bla bla...... Mark Twain said it breeds... you know what...
I only wish they had taught the WORD instead of Zippy Ziglar Zalinski Doojangle Jacob Jinlgle-olly or whoever is was...
sigamo si - pass him on by! what a hoot!
OK pdq, it could have been stated more clearly. I understand that and agree. However, we all know what it means and you are trivializing the whole point. Which, I might add, you are very good at.
-concerned minister NTCC
Darwin: The NTCC is very good at trying to ruin someones credibility to suit their personal agenda. They still do the same thing. The examples that you gave are common place. My wife was blasted for three services consecutivly because she didn't want to teach Sunday school for the pastor in Atlanta; S. Mayers. She got sick and tired of feeling like she could never do right.
Mayers even admitted blasting her deliberately during the forth and next service that we attended. Shortly after that we left his church altogether for good and started attending the NTCC church in Columbus Georgia to get away from Mayers thinking things would get better. Well they certainly did get better but at the cost of Mayers calling Graham and convincing Olson to BAN us for conference attendance and all church support activities like playing the piano which my wife was quite good at.
We had to get back into RWD's and Olson's good graces because Mayers had made dirt of our reputation. It didn't matter that Mayers own minister helpers had even complained about him to Graham. The abusive tactics that Mayers used came from RWD, Olson, Kekel and all the rest. To abuse people and then discredit them in the NTCC is a common practice. DD: The NTCC is sorry and I am exposing them. What took place in Atlanta was just the tip of the iceberg I have learned to understand clearly.
The NTCC is a totalitarian communist corporation for sure. I am not being overly dramatic when I say that either. The NTCC suppresses social interaction and creates a system of extensive services and mandatory requirements that makes it very difficult for someone to make good money. I know of a minister who is out of work thanks to the NTCCs sorry schedule requirements.
Jeff
-concerned minister NTCC said..."OK pdq, it could have been stated more clearly. I understand that and agree. However, we all know what it means and you are trivializing the whole point. Which, I might add, you are very good at."
I disagree; the ‘policy’ of the NTCC Student Handbook is stated very clearly. I am not the one forcing it to mean what it doesn’t say. Also, trivializing was not my intention. Maybe I will start choosing stronger language, and attempt to be even more concise…although this will make my already long posts even longer.
I was doing my best to amplify (what NTCC would prefer to keep quiet), while magnifying (what NTCC would prefer remain hidden), what is clearly written in the NTCS Student Handbook; to emphasis its literal meaning, to re-escort it from behind the façade of NTCC’s most recent damage control spin.
All those 'sins' listed in the Handbook have been preached as ‘Biblical sins’ since NTCC's inception in 1969 (except for any technology that wasn't around then), regardless of current NTCC 'policy.' The NTCS Student Handbook means exactly what I said it means; as this is part of what is preached, as damning sins by NTCC, for the past four decades.
The Handbook supports what we have been saying about NTCC. It is NTCCers (such as yourself) who recently re-attempted to trivialize the importance of these longstanding NTCC 'doctrines.' It is NTCC who recently said these NTCC commandments were just 'policy' all along, guidelines to be followed, or disregarded, at the individuals discretion...with no repercussions either way, and no danger of ‘splitting hell wide open.’
Anyone who has been involved with NTCC longer than a month, knows (Rev. Kekel included) this latest 'revelation' by Rev. Kekel--that all the commands in the Student Handbook, and all the commands that has been taught over the last four decades is…merely 'policy'--is a lie.
Rev. Kekel wants to continue to justify his disobedience, hypocrisy, the entrenched double-standard, and attempt damage control. While maintaining his always glib, and always cavalier attitude. This is all with the approval of Pastor Davis (who also approved of Rev. Kekel’s predilection for pedophilia, when it evinced itself against [no pun intended, as this is an horrific recurring event] the then 13 through 16 year old Tanya Davis), which makes this more demented, and confirms their evil united motives, our precisely accurate detailed witness, and our rare suppositions; by the mouth (keyboard) of many witnesses.
Nothing is done in a corner in NTCC, the leadership knows about all that goes on, and gives their not-so-tacit approval. Based on Rev. Kekel’s own ‘testimony,’ God does ‘bless’ sin and disobedience.
I do have a question "concerned minister NTCC"...what are you concerned about? The truth? Or maintaining the status quo, and toeing the party line? Hopefully I didn’t continue to trivialize any aspect of any issue with this post. Keep the blinders on…you are winning!
Yours In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
Jeff said...
Darwin: The NTCC is very good at trying to ruin someones credibility to suit their personal agenda. They still do the same thing. The examples that you gave are common place. My wife was blasted for three services consecutively because she didn't want to teach Sunday school for the pastor in Atlanta; S. Mayers. She got sick and tired of feeling like she could never do right.
Comrade Jeffseph Stollins,
The comment about your wife being blasted is the real "Hammer & Sickle treatment" witnessed by many and few can deny this behavior.
***********
Anonymous, you can call me all the names you want I really don't care, just remember you really are a pot calling the kettle black when you refer to me having a totalitarian dictatorial, authoritarian and communistic attitude. How many times have you given the “ Hammer & Sickle” treatment to people? If you haven’t my apology will be waiting.
pdq said...
"I do have a question "concerned minister NTCC"...what are you concerned about? The truth?"
Absolutely! I am not ready to believe a lot of what you said in your previous post, however I do understand that much of what was considered Bible standards "back in the day" are now being reformatted as policy. I have my own opinions about all of that. I will not share them here. The main thing I am concerned about is the fact that there are preachers in the office of pastors over churches in the NTCC who are abusing the office and their members. I have openly admitted this on this forum and it is a well known fact. Some have even accused you, pdq, of being an abusive pastor while you were in NTCC.
-concerned minister NTCC
All good reads but I do have a question about the NTCS.
Why is it when a person is "interested" in attending and they want to know about it. No one will tell them anything? Want to attend any other college and you get all kinds of help, and answers to your questions.
At NTCC you don't know and are told jack crap about NTCS until you have signed on the dotted line and by then it's too late (well not really but hopefully you understand what I am saying. IF NOT....what I mean is you don't find out the truth about NTCS until it is too late for you to change your mind and NOT sign on the dotted line).
That is the reason I decided not to go to NTCS. When I asked quesetions about the classes and cost I couldn't get a straight answer from anyone. I was basically told I find all that out once I am enrolled. No thank you!
The school I attend now I probably drove them nuts with as many times as I called and asked questions before I finally decided to enroll. But they answered every single last question I had to my satisfaction. And they were not the only college I contacted when searching out schools.
Also glad to be back reading your blog again Jeff. We (the hubby and I) had saved up money over the last year specifically for this trip and took our kids to Disneyland last week and we are just starting to recover from all that we did. But we had a blast.
I start my summer vacation from school next week. I had to slam down 2 weeks of homework and finish my final paper before we went on vacation so that I wouldn't have to deal with it while on vacation. And now am in my last week of my 1st year.
Lots of good things going on here in Idaho for our family. Please do keep us in prayer though. As you all know well some of you know. They hubby has been working out of state for years because he has not been able to find work in Idaho since we moved here. Well he has a job interview with the owner (you usually don't interview with the owner) of a business here. He is actually coming here from Washington State where he lives to conduct the interview. And the interview is tomorrow. I will be tagging along because they asked my hubby to bring me along. This business has been in Idaho for 53+ years and my husband really wants to be here in idaho and no longer having to travel away from his family. So please pray that he gets this job. I would very much appreciate it. Also my position in our church is about to change so please pray it is a smooth transition for me. I am going to be put as the head over one of the ministries within the next few months(don't worry I wont be teaching grown adult men). Well I am going to stop typing before I reach my max words.
Jeff I may call you sometime soon or you can call me. Nothing serious. So don't have a heart attack. Missed reading your blog.
Hope everyone has a blessed day!
IdahoAngie
Angie said...
"Why is it when a person is "interested" in attending and they want to know about it. No one will tell them anything? Want to attend any other college and you get all kinds of help, and answers to your questions."
Jeff said...
First. HEY Angie!!! How have you been. I hope everything is fine with school and your family as well. I'm sure you are quite busy with the kids and all. Just wanted to throw out a greeting.
The NTCC wants to keep that stuff as secret as possible and then drop the bomb on you as soon as you show up for school. They; "the NTCC leadership" knows once you travel all that way it is unlikely that you will leave. They also understand that it is quite possible that you would never even go to their school if you have a good knowledge in advance of all the controlling, absurd rules that you would have to endure once you arrive.
Jeff
Oh, by the way Angie: That is great that you and your family were able to go on a good vacation. Such a trip would have been highly unlikely had you remained in the NTCC and probably not very well received by your pastor had you made mention of planning such a trip.
Call any time by all means. You have been missed on this blog as well. You've contributed greatly to this blog having posted a substantial number of testimonies about how life was while you were with the NTCC. Take care.
404-405-7842
Jeff
We also just went on our First ever family vacation. Also to Disneyland and Sea World. It was awesome. we took our time. Stopped when we needed to. Made memories with our kids. So when our kids get older they can remember fond memories of there childhood.
So thankful that we jumped ship when we did.
Dealing with alot of tramau from our exit. But we are now Free!
cm
Comrade Travis,
You really do not know me.
I purpose to do my best to treat everyone with love and kindness.
I have been treated with love and kindness by many members, ministers, and leaders within NTCC.
My contention is that once a person has purposed to tear down and destroy NTCC (for whatever reason or multitudes of reasons)they appear to refuse to see or remember any of the good.
Anytime a voice of dissent appears on an ANTI-NTCC Blogda... that voice is hammered down and slashed to shreds.
Again, as I shared with Comrade Stollins, may the Lord help me to not justify the wicked; nor condemn the righteous.
I purposed years ago to live by that scripture.
In my opinion, many in the ANTI-NTCC Establishment need to be more careful in that regard.
However, sadly, my concern is that my dissenting opinion will again be thrown over a bridge or under a train... and the ANTI-NTCC Establishment will continue to sow their tares and thorns and briers.
Again, I apologize for harm that has come to you or anyone else as a result of their involvement with NTCC.
However, is anyone out there at least willing to consider that not every problem in their life is because of NTCC???
With Love,
Anonymous
CM: There are NTCC pastors who have been going to places like Disney World for quite some time. The biggest problem with the NTCC is the double standards.
While I was in the NTCC I didn't try to find anything out about how other NTCC churches operated other than the one I was in. My own innocents made me blind as a bat. Because of all the investagation that my wife and I have done, I now see a totally different picture of the NTCC than the one that I'd seen while I was in. I now know that some NTCC ministers go to haunted houses, college football games, Disney world, winter grass otherwise known as blue grass festivals and so on. I actually have digital photos saved on my computer of NTCC ministers and or their wives attending a college football game and Disney world.
Is that a big deal? Of course not. The problem is it never should have been made a big deal by so many NTCC ministers to include the overseers and RWD and probably 98% of the NTCC pastors. Mayers preached against that stuff as hard as anyone and now he is one of the biggest offenders while the whole time still remaining an NTCC pastor.
I thank God for the internet because for some reason NTCC ministers and especially their wives like to post pictures of the places they go. Places like college football games and Disney world with pictures of them proudly wearing finger nail and toe nail polish that they like to wear. I have a pretty good little library of photos saved on my computer displaying such hypocrisy. Strangely enough I just found out today that my wife has been saving this stuff all along. I'm glad she did because it may come in handy on day.
CM: The difference between you and some of these other wives of NTCC ministers is that you probably did try and conform to the NTCC teachings while you were in. It's apparent they haven't based on the pictures that I have or they never took RWD serious; one or the other. The funny thing is some of their husbands have a history of preaching against some of the very things they do now.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
"Again, as I shared with Comrade Stollins"
Vladamir Travsky: Comrade is back!!!!! Good to hear from you Comrade. Look, I understand some of your points. I don't see the NTCC as the sum total of my problems. The fact is I don't have too many problems that I know of. I do see that a whole lot of my life was wasted because of the time that I spent with the NTCC. As far as I can tell, I had a whole lot more problems while I was with the NTCC. Of course everything is not always as it seems.
I do however have a great retirement, great job, great family, nice house, brand new safe car for my wife to drive herself and the kids around in. One of the best and safest cars built actually according to Consumer Reports and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. I'm in good health. My kids are both in great schools. My son has a normal childhood like the one that Grant Kekel has had all along. Unfortunately many of the other NTCC children have been deprived of anything that even resembles a normal childhood.
The fact is I have nothing to complain about and if I did no one would listen anyway. I think you miss the whole point Comrade. The NTCC is one totally messed up corporation. They have totally messed up the lives of many people. That's right; the NTCC did it. You think everyone had a choice?
What; everyone of these women who followed their husbands had a choice? What; they were all just supposed to leave their husbands because they knew he has got mixed up with a cult? What; a five year old child is supposed to leave his or her parents because their childhood is being wrecked by their parents ignorantly following the NTCC rules? The same rules that the Kekels haven't followed all along? Comrade you need to wake up!!! We are trying to help people by exposing the NTCC because lives are being WASTED. Maybe not destroyed; even though sometimes that is the case but certainly WASTED for sure.
Comrade: Do you think these testimonies that we give are lies? A brother posted that his pastor said to his two year old child that the child was going to be FAT just like the child's mama. That NTCC pastor should have been punched in the mouth! He abused his authority as a pastor when he made that statement to a two year old in front of the child's parents.
Comrade: All you have to do is start at the beginning and read this whole blog. You would be SICKENED if you have any heart at all. There are so many stories of abuse, double standards, and hypocrisy written on this blog alone to write a Stephen King novel. Don't even attempt to spend any time searching factnet!!! You may throw-up out of pure disgust toward the NTCC abuse, double standards and hypocrisy.
Wake up Comrade. What we are doing here is necessary. Read this blog with an open heart and I guarantee that you will finish with a whole different opinion of the church that you are a part of, and it won't be a good one. If you think all of us are just lying you are seriously deceived and willfully so.
Sincerely,
Jeffrey Collins
404-405-7842
Comrade wrote...
"My contention is that once a person has purposed to tear down and destroy NTCC (for whatever reason or multitudes of reasons)they appear to refuse to see or remember any of the good."
Jeff replied...
Someone helps every old lady across the street for a year, gives to charity, shows every manner of kindness toward his fellow man and suddenly one day ignorantly looses his mind and breaks into my house and rapes my wife and beats my little boy into a coma and I am supposed to remember all the good that the individual had done previously? Negative!!!!
I could care less how good some of the people actually and truly are that are in fact still in the NTCC; which is the case. There were good people in Nazi Germany when the concentration camp guards were torching Jews, starving them to death and shooting them at point blank range in the back of the head. It had nothing to do with the good Germans? The good Germans weren't in control of the German military. It was the crooked and evil Nazi regime and they had to be taken out of the picture before the evil practices were to cease. And so do a whole bunch of these NTCC ministers if their evil practices are going to cease.
Does the word, nepotism mean anything to you? How about a crooked leadership that has been created out of nepotism. Oh I guess God decided to place folks all from the same families in charge of the NTCC because they all circumstantially happened to be the most spiritual out of the bunch. Believe that and I have some beach front property to rent you but you have to pay me cash for rent and the property is right out side or RWDs front door. Just send me cash in the mail so there are no checks to track.
Jeff
Comrade Stollins,
Can you give me a list of names of NTCC ministers who have ...
"looses his mind and breaks into my house and rapes my wife and beats my little boy into a coma?"
I will gladly help you prosecute them to the fullest extent of the law.
Otherwise, I think you are "over-sensationalizing" all the percieved wrongs that have ever been done to you, and you are using your Hammer & Sickle ANTI-NTCC Establishment Blogda to lead the fight in your own self-justification.
Just admit that dissenting opinions are not allowed here, and I will gladly leave you alone.
With Love,
Anonymous
he is just using that as an example. he isn't saying someone in ntcc does it.
as your own teachers in ntcc teach, exaggeration is good for effect.
were you there for that class ?
no we cannot blame ntcc for everything "Wrong" in our life but they sure had a good influence in it all.
i am sure there are many things I would have or would not have done if the NTCC rules and/or "going to hell" wasn't influencing my decisions.
as a result, ntcc has a GREAT part in what has happened in my life.
i also believe though that God will use all of this for His good.
I liken myself to joseph. where he was in these bad situations but God brought good out of it.
also, no one is trying to trash and tear down ntcc
that is obviously the lies they feed you to discredit the truths "ex-ntccers" say.
all people are doing is pointing out the hypocrisy and they are trying to keep it covered. Didn't Jesus say what is hid shall be known ?
also, they tell lies on people that leave too. God is still with people that aren't attending NTCC. They feed you that stuff to "keep" you there. living in fear.
God is within you by the Holy Spirit. This isn't the Old Testament where NTCC is the ark of God.
To Anonymous June 26, 2009 9:19 AM
And also June 26, 2009 9:23 AM
PAAA-LEEZE!
Of course Comrade Stollins was exaggerating... such is the basis for most propaganda.
My point is many times the whole TRUTH & nothing but the TRUTH is NOT shared by the ANTI-NTCC Establishment in order to further their own cause which is to destroy and tear down NTCC.
Hammer & Sickle methods are often used to "run off" any voices of dissent (unless the Blodga leadership feels they may have a chance to "win" another one to "their side").
No one is spoon feeding me lies.
I am not living in fear. I am a part of NTCC, because I want to be a part.
I also am convinced that God has a people all around the world who are saved, and serve Him; who have never even heard of NTCC.
I sincerely purpose to do my best to make an honest, objective assessment of each individual and or situation that comes to my attention regarding the various allegations of abuse.
I am not defending any actual injustice committed by anyone in NTCC Leadership.
I am simply trying to be a voice of reason crying out to all those involved in the ANTI-NTCC Establishment to be careful not to justify the wicked nor condemn the righteous.
With Love,
Anonymous
Anytime a voice of dissent appears on an ANTI-NTCC Blogda... that voice is hammered down and slashed to shreds.
i doubt it. that is how ntcc operates, shuts down and lies on voices of dissent.
concerned minister is welcomed here because he knows how to speak instead of just rant and rave like others have done.
no matter the topic in any conversation, no one wants to hear someone who screams illogically and cant provide facts and/or be reasonable.
so what righteousness do you see as being condemned ?
how is ntcc being torn down and destroyed ?
share your specific views and insights. i'm interested as to what they are.
Comrade: I kind of like you on here. You actually help our cause because your deliberate blindness to the evils surrounding the NTCCs current leadership is painfully obvious to most readers I'm sure. Having said that you wrote:
"Otherwise, I think you are "over-sensationalizing" all the percieved wrongs that have ever been done to you"
Jeff replied...
First I must highlight the word in your statement that I quoted last; "YOU".
Why did you use the word "you"? Because this blog was created by me? In case you haven't noticed, which would once again have been deliberate, there are a whole lot of other people here, who write of their negative experiences while with the NTCC other than "ME". In fact between, this blog, Tracy's blog, and FACTNet there have been hundreds if not thousands of people who have written of their negative experiences while with the NTCC.
You need not trivialize my experiences as though they are the only ones spoken of. But that tactic, Mr. Comrade is classic NTCC Hammer & Sickle treatment that NTCC ministers like "Kekel" prefer to use on the dissidents. NTCC ministers have continually suggested to their members who have grievances, that the specific member with the grievance is the "one" with the problem and everyone else in the NTCC is walking in pure content.
You are attempting, unsuccessfully I might add, to incorporate that same tactic with me. I didn't start FACTNets NTCC column and single handedly post tens of thousands of messages condemning the evil practices seen throughout the NTCC. Neither did I start Tracy's blog and do the same. You say I am over-sensationalizing? You sir, notice I didn't capitalize the "s", are over trivializing "Our" complaints on this blog; notice I capitalized the "O".
You have assumed that this old GI can be outwitted by someone such as yourself, who simply decides to craftily come on this blog showing a display of witty rhetoric. That is all that you are all about! You are what I call a blow hard with a big bark and no substance to back it up.
Why did you use the word "perceived" in conjunction with the word "wrongs". First you spelled the word perceived wrong which in itself is actually no big deal but, I figured that because you decided to insult me with that word, I would point that out. Second; in using the word "perceived", you suggested that all the wrongs that "I" speak of are only my "perception" and therefor they may not actually be "reality".
I can assure you Mr. Comrade, that the SERIOUS and SEVERE wrongs that have in fact, been committed against not only "me", but the rest of the folks who post on this blog, are quite factual and a whole lot more valid than what we simply "perceive"; thank you.
Oh, please don't patronize me with your insulting, "with love" at the end of your trivializing statements. There is no love involved with what you write. That is just another common tactic that NTCC folks use in an attempt to portray themselves as "spiritual" and "caring" individuals when in fact they are actually not.
Comrade: You are not here because of love; you are here to defend the NTCC so call it what it is. That is the same reason that Mike Kekel started his blog. To retaliate against the dissidents. Your attempts are futile because the truth always comes out in the end.
Jeff
Jeff,
I am sorry that you feel the way that you do. You are convinced that you are right and NTCC is always wrong.
Things are not as black & white as you portray them.
It is pointless for me or anyone else (no matter how careful or contentious they may be; i.e. "Concerned Minister") to offer an opposing view on this or any other ANTI-NTCC Establishment Blogda.
All dissenting (pro-ntcc) voices shall be ridiculed, slashed, trashed, picked apart (come on - who really cares how perceived is speelled???).
When you said it was obvious to most readers on this blog (please allow me to paraphrase)... How unloving, uncaring, unspiritual, blinded, untruthful, and unsuccessful I am...
All I hear is hatred and bitterness in your voice... and your actions remind me of a headline in today's news:
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Members of Iran's influential National Security Council have told opposition leader Mir Hossein Moussavi that his repeated demands for the annulment of the June 12 election results are "illogical and unethical," state media reported.
Sincerely,
Another Person who knows the Truth and has had many wonderful experiences in NTCC
Comrade wrote...
"I sincerely purpose to do my best to make an honest, objective assessment of each individual and or situation that comes to my attention regarding the various allegations of abuse."
Jeff made an observation...
You are either trying to "deceive" folks on this blog and throw us off, or you, while trying to post anonymously have showed that you are someone with some real authority in the NTCC. How many people in the NTCC have folks coming to them with allegations of abuse? Maybe 10 at the most? The overseers, Kekel, RWD, Olson, Johnson.
Either Comrade is being deceptive folks, or we have a heavy hitter here in our presents. My guess is that it is Kekel himself but that guess is of course pure speculation. The fact is it doesn't matter who you are so don't flatter yourself Comrade. I could care less who you are but what I do care about is that you have messed up the lives of may people and you are a sorry example of someone who called them self a Christian.
If Comrade does in fact deal with allegations of abuse we are dealing with a male and he is a "big dog". Cut him no slack folks. Travsky: Fire the missiles. pdq: unleash the skillful rhetoric on this clown. Casey: Let this guy know how you really feel about the treatment that you received after 24 years of faithful service. CM: Don't hold back on this guy at all. Big t: You have the floor for this guy. I could get hot an heavy around here folks and so be it. Comrade is a hypocrite who is responsible for perpetuating so many of NTCC's double standards.
How do you like that Comrade?
You are a hypocrite who perpetuates double standards. You need to get saved and repent of all your evil deeds. You better hope the God that you claim to serve doesn't even exist, or you are going to have a hard time in the day of judgement. Have you forgotten that Christ couldn't stand the pharisees and religious hypocrites. You will be better off in the day of judgement going before God as a flat out sinner than a religious hypocrite who used his brethren and willfully perpetuated double standards.
And by the way. I never even used the word; "unsuccessful". But that is one of the things that you NTCC guys are good at; misquoting people and characterization.
I never said I cared how perceived was spelled but there you go mischaracterizing my statements again. I did say the misspelling was no big deal but being that you wanted to use it on me I would point that out. The point I was making is that if you didn't use the word perceived to start with, to trivialize our complaints, you wouldn't have spelled it wrong.
You say hatred and bittiness? Jesus said: "But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes, which I also hate"
You are right! I hate your hypocrisy and the fact that you willfully deny that your church practices double standard when you know you do. Jesus hated wrong doers so why can't I and be justified in the process? I may not be justified with everything that I do but I am justified with hating your double standards; and hating hypocrisy and double standards does not translate into bitterness. Are you saying that Jesus was bitter toward the Nicolaitanes and therefor wrong. I didn't think so. Neither am I wrong because I "hate" your double standards.
404-405-7842
Jeffrey Collins
preach it sir !
(honest appreciation and no sarcasm intended towards jeff)
the sarcasm is intended towards ntcc
and their trying to cover up and explain away their hypocrisy.
You're right chief:
I just don't like that for years and years you were taught and preached, yelled at and all those things about going here or going there, even rwd said that he was not a person to go out on vacation because he rather be doing something for God. According to him that is what matters and it sounds like he is being spiritual and all but then you have these preachers hearing all this stuff and then they go and take it as doctrine and change it around and they go to their churches and start preaching it to their members and everything is just a big mess.
I know of a fellow right now and I don't know if he still is in kc but he was that way. He would misconstrued everything that rwd said and he as far as I know doesn't even have the internet today because rwd said in the late 90's that the internet was for business or to view pornography.
There's people like this guy, that I don't think will change and will continue to preach and get in peoples faces. I remember that the workers would not seat in front because they just didn't want
to be spit upon when he would get down from the pulpit and point his finger at them.
I doubt if he's changed or will ever change but people that would go to his church were put off by this theatrical stuff and never returned.
ntcc has alot of answering to do about this kind of junk but as long as they keep churches open and money rolling in, I guess they don't care.
Jeff,
I am no heavy hitter or big dog.
And I am not planning on hanging around here on your Blogda to be mistreated and abused.
If you could only see yourself, you are just as guilty in your false accusations about me, as those you claim have so abused you over the years.
And just for the sake of clarity, you did use a form of the word unsuccessful in one of your previous rants against me.
"You are attempting, unsuccessfully I might add, to incorporate that same tactic with me". June 26, 2009 11:43 AM
I have no desire to fight or bicker with you and your ANTI-NTCC ESTABLISHMENT BLODGA.
It is obvious we do not agree, and dissent is not allowed here.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
dissent isn't allowed on kekels blog.
dissent is allowed here as long as it is intelligent and has the ability to reason and support ones beliefs.
what is not supported is making an accusation and not being able to state the reasons for that nor support it with why and what you believe.
"A brother posted that his pastor said to his two year old child that the child was going to be FAT just like the child's mama."
That was RW himself; he said that to Janet Allen. She swallowed her tears until later, until she could give emotional vent to her hurt without further ridicule. What kind of beast would say such a thing to a new mother? And he claims apostleship!
Apostle?! What do you think about that, Comrade Anonymous Defender of the Indefensible, and Mr. Concerned Minister? Is RW an apostle, or is he a liar? It's either one or the other (or else he's delusional), because he personally taught us that he is a teacher, evangelist, pastor, prophet, and apostle, all rolled into one.
He slices, he dices, he can't remember the last time he sinned! He communes with angels and hears the audible voice of God! Order your RW super-apostle action figure today! (Quantities limited; batteries not included.)
He's an apostle, all right--a false one, and the bible warns against such.
"My contention is that once a person has purposed to tear down and destroy NTCC (for whatever reason or multitudes of reasons)they appear to refuse to see or remember any of the good.
Anytime a voice of dissent appears on an ANTI-NTCC Blogda... that voice is hammered down and slashed to shreds."
This opinion is a symptom of your denial. If these "voice(s) of dissent" had any credibility, they couldn't be gainsayed. But frankly, destroying pro-NTCC arguments is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Your problem is that you have been conditioned through years of mind control to perceive any criticism of RW and NTCC as an attack directly from Satan, and your mind instantly shuts down while you go into knee-jerk defense mode. That's denial. What do you think happened to make Brian Pelfrey, Doug Allen, and other staunch NTCC defenders, who used to post on FACTnet in defense of the borg, completely reverse their positions? It was because deep down, they (like you, most likely), based on years of observation and personal experience, harbored deep doubts about the NTCC dog and pony show, until the accumulated weight of reality finally burst the dam of their resistance and swept the veneer off of the ugly truth.
NTCC is a sick entity that masquerades as a legitimate church. No one has denied that there are good people entrapped there; after all, we were there ourselves, some for decades. We're quite aware of the dynamics of mind control, and understand and pity your situation. Our collective hope is that you will cast off the NTCC yoke of bondage and breathe the pure air of liberty. Jump in, the water's fine!
If Jeff really wanted to stifle dissent, he would just delete your posts, or moderate this blog, like Mike Kekel does. It's not his fault that you can't proffer any arguments that aren't susceptible to being "hammered down and slashed to shreds."
Jeff said (copying you here LOL):"Such a trip would have been highly unlikely had you remained in the NTCC and probably not very well received by your pastor had you made mention of planning such a trip."
Angie said: This is where NTCC and I differ. And you can ask my former pastor (you know who he is). I used to take off on vacation all the time and not tell anyone(except my parents) and then have to deal with the heart attacks and 30 voice mail messages when I returned back. We had to save for this vacation but there are times where we just up and take off and get away. Nothing or no one within NTCC would have been able to change that(because I am just that stubborn). If I need a break and I have the money I take it.
With the church I am a member of and the Pastor I have now, he actually encourages families to take time off. We do not have midweek services at all. Because he feels we should be spending time with our families. Which after dealing with NTCC I happen to agree with him 100%. Those of us who are in charge of different areas within the church do have to attend meetings sometimes during the week. We do get together for fellowship. We are going to be starting home groups that meet during the week eventually. Mostly because there are people that attend the church who drive an hour to get there and then have to drive an hour to get home. Our Pastor doesn't want them to have to make multiple trips out when gas prices are soaring back up again. Something NTCC could care less about.
CM: Glad your family got to go on vacation. It is relaxing and refreshing. We thought about going to sea world but decided against it. Was it fun?
Also Jeff I remember a time when a sister was staying with me while my husband was in Iraq. She had a laptop and used to watch DVD's on it all the time. I never said anything because I didn't see anything wrong with it. But the sister she had stayed with before me made it a point to "tattle" to pastor about it. I found it rather stupid and childish to tattle over stupid stuff like that.
Now me going to the pastor about a sister threatening the kids in the nursery with a wooden spoon if they didn't behave. That is a reason to go to the pastor. Tell you what...had she of actually hit my kids with it. She'd still be having medical problems to this day. And no I am not ashamed to say such a thing either. No body touches my kids to discipline them but my husband and I. I tell everyone even the people who babysit. If you have a problem with my kids while they are with you let me know and I will deal with it. All they are allowed to do is stick them in time out or not allow them to play. They touch them and I find out.. ooh you can bet their going down ghetto style!
IdahoAngie
To Anon of June 26, 2009 12:25 PM:
I had some good experiences in NTCC. Does that mean I am not allowed to share my bad experiences? So are you saying it is ok for NTCC to treat their members like crap as long as there is some good experiences mixed in with it?
Thats like saying its ok for a husband to beat his wife as long as he is providing her a roof over her head and promising never to beat her again after every beating.
Sorry but NOT ALL of NTCC is good and butt kissing, sugar coating, loving and caring.
Your comments actually make me sick. And it takes a lot to offend me. You are so blinde that you probably do not even notice when you yourself are being treated less than.
I had good experiences in NTCC. But I got tired of being treated like a second rate citizen who wasn't worth anything to anyone but a pile of dog crap if I didn't follow ever stupid stress inducing, medical problem causing rule to the last stinking T.
Are you trying to say that all of us should ignore all the bad experiences we had and focus on the good? That we should have sucked it up (like the military likes to say). Semper Fi?
Give me a break. The Bad experiences outweigh the good 90/10. I don't hold hatred to NTCC. But I was not about to continue to attend and let my children be treated like crap, threatened with wooden spoons if they did not behave, told how to raise my children, embarassed infront of the entire church I attended (this happened more then once). Told I should divorce my husband(who did not attend NTCC) because he refused to let me tithe off his paycheck to the church. I tithed off what he gave me every month. But NTCC knew he made a lot of money. WHen I wanted to attend an NTCC that was closer to my home I was conned into not doing so because I was the ONLY person in that church that gave a decent tithe check in the eyes of Davis. How do I know? At the time my husband made well over what military officers make in the military. 90% of NTCC members are dirt poor or pretty stinking close to it. NTCC wanted the money. Should have seen them have their cows when I went and bought a brand new car and paid full price for it and owned it when I drove off the lot. OH my bad you wanted that money? THey wanted me to tithe off my tax return. Incase you didn't know every paycheck you tithe is the only tithe you need to pay. Because when you tithe off your gross income you have already tithed off your tax return. You don't believe me. Go figure out your gross income for a year. Because that is what you tithe off of BEFORE taxes come out. Notice I said GROSS INCOME and BEFORE TAXES come out?
(continued next post)
Sorry but I wouldn't have divorced my husband had he been dirt poor during my time in NTCC. I married him for better or worse, richer or poorer. The only reason I would divorce his butt is if he raised a hand to hit me. I am a woman not a slave and NO WOMAN deserves to be hit for any reason. And any man who uses scripture to say it is ok is just as sick in the head as the person who believes it.
You are more then welcome to be content if your blinde happiness, to ignore the spiritual and mental abuse going on. But there are those of us who went through hell in NTCC. And we do have the right to refuse to no longer attend. We have the right to get our stories out there. We have a right to speak the truth about how BAD we were treated. And if you don't like it more power to you. But you crying at us like a baby because we want to warn people by telling them the stories of how we were treated while we were in NTCC is not in no way shape or form going to stop us. So either start being respectful like NTCC Minister has been or stop posting. Because we are not here to argue with immature childish adults who don't know how to politely talk to other adults without ticking off the population.
You might be offeneded and not want to believe any of this crap happened to any one of us. But I am telling you it most certainly did. And I am not going to stop sharing my story no matter how much you or anyone else complains and cries about it. I could care less if people in NTCC are offended that I or anyone else gets on here to share our story. At least NTCC Minister has the guts to admit that he knows not all ministers in NTCC are right with God. If they were they wouldn't treat their members like crap and none of us would be on here sharing our stories. The abuse starts with Davis and trickles all the way down. It might miss some of the ministers but a good amount of them are taking a bath in it and enjoying every single last minute of it. I just hope one day their eyes are opened and they get on the phone, internet, etc and search out every single last person they hurt and call them, email them, etc and apolojize because they ow ever single last person they hurt that.
We ow no apology for sharing our stories. If you think we do then you sir/man are sorely mistaken.
Not caring that NTCC feathers are riled up,
IdahoAngie
Remember we are all human, no one is perfect, we all have faults. God put us here to please him and to lead others to him. Not debate or argue over who's religion is right, first, the true one, or better. In the end it won't matter. God is the one who will decide if you did right. Not your church, religious affiliation, priest, saint's, etc. Please keep that in mind when you go to condemn, put down, or tear apart a person who is not of the same faith as you. Be a Christian (Christ follower) not a condemner (thats not your job anyways).
Comrade said...
And just for the sake of clarity, you did use a form of the word unsuccessful in one of your previous rants against me.
Jeff said...
A form of the word? You took what you wrote and what I wrote totally out of context. Nothing else needs to be said.
Jeff.
Anonymous said...
I am no heavy hitter or big dog.
And I am not planning on hanging around here on your Blogda to be mistreated and abused.
Jeff said...
Ok I should have been literal. You may not be a "heavy hitter" or "big dog" in the literal sense but if you deal with as you put it, "various allegations of abuse" you must have authority over some people. Why else would various allegations of abuse even reach your ears. And if you are not in a leadership position why would you even have to assess such situations? You wouldn't even encounter such allegations if you didn't have authority because the NTCC leadership keeps stuff quiet like allegations of abuse.
I should have known to be more clear and concise because you have successfully tap danced around my assertion that you have authority over other ministers in the NTCC. There is no other logical explanation for you having anything to do with allegations of abuse. You are at a minimum a pastor who has been around the NTCC for quite some time however I suspect that you have a whole lot more authority than the average NTCC pastor.
You said that you are not planning on hanging around here to be abused? None of us were planning on hanging around the NTCC to receive the years of abuse that we endured either. It doesn't feel good does it? I didn't think so. You have your bully pulpit and this is mine. You just got a very small taste of what ALL of us had to put up with. The difference is we dealt with the abuse for years and years because we had a lot more faith in you guys than we ever should have. I guess we were all kind of foolish in believing that someone who claimed to be a Christian should actually act like one. You guys sure proved us wrong. Think about it Comrade.
Sincerely,
Jeff
No one is spoon feeding me lies
Sorry sir. there is not much that is the truth in ntcc. We do not come on here to bash and run ntcc fans off. We are here to EXPOSE the LIE's and damage ntcc has done to so many people's live's. They are hurting souls,not saving souls!!
Those that say that we are just trying to run you off. What you don't like is opposition. People like Jeff,PDQ,Angie,Casey... We can come back with FACTS. FACTS That show ntcc in very damaging light! TO BAD! We are here to STAY!
In the past so many folks that left ntcc fading away into the Shadow's. Not anymore! ntcc fanatics hate it that we can now tell others and EXPOSE THEM!
YOUR NOT WINNING! rw wants to keep ntcc at a certain size. But MK wants it to be a HUGE mega Church. Then ntcc will be more of a Target. The IRS and FEDs will be noticing this cult alot more!!
CM
Comrade Anonymous,
I personally don't have anything against NTCC. I can't help but feel however, that they have let alot of people down and have fallen short of the mark. I am not saying they have train wrecked my life,(life is pretty grand by the way). There were somethings that were irritating and frustrating, mainly the double standards and the half exclamations. I don't by any means hate NTCC, and actually probably one of the few on this blog that believe that through prayer that NTCC is going to mature into the organization God intended it to be.(I know Jeff STRONGLY disagrees with me on this and we have talked on the phone about it....but lookeee here I am still posting on his blog uncensored!)
Nellashara
IdahoAngie said...
"Remember we are all human, no one is perfect, we all have faults. God put us here to please him and to lead others to him. Not debate or argue over who's religion is right, first, the true one, or better. In the end it won't matter. God is the one who will decide if you did right. Not your church, religious affiliation, priest, saint's, etc. Please keep that in mind when you go to condemn, put down, or tear apart a person who is not of the same faith as you. Be a Christian (Christ follower) not a condemner (thats not your job anyways)".
Angie thank you for the spiritual voice of reason contained in your last post.
And as to the rest of you - (Including Comrade Stollins & the Extremely Exalted HEAD of Party Policy - HIS EMINENCE COMRADE VICTIMIZOR JOHANSKI) - may God have mercy on your souls.
I will tell you like I told the homeless man that I took to McDonalds last night and got him a $25 gift card to use when he gets hungry...
"I am nobody...
Jesus wanted me to do this for you"
NTCC is not as evil and dangerous as you portray us.
Again, I am not justifying the wicked; nor do I want to condemn the righteous, BUT:
Things are not as black & white as you make them out to be.
June 26, 2009 9:07 PM
this ntcc fan could be one of the office slave's so called worker's(SPIE'S) on other people
CM
Nellashara.
How do you know that God intends to use or have ntcc mature into what he wants. When we were in our LAST work. I decided God was using our situation to get us out of ntcc. It has so much EVIL behind the scene's. those that are running ntcc are not going to change. That would lighten there wallets. So why do they want to take money out of there own wallets. When THEY DO NOT CARE FOR SOULS! They want to push and prod men and women to do what they want. To get there fancy cars,big home's,expensive suits,dress's,Private school for the next Dictator of ntcc(Grant)
There corrupt to the core. It would take alot to change and reverse there course.
CM
Things are not as black & white as you make them out to be.
If you don't mind. Expound on this statement. Why are they not black and white? rw has had a plan from the start. MK is his crony and the other's cronies. Follow and lap up everything that is said to them. So called YES MEN!
CM
CM,
I believe you have misunderstood me. Either God is going to get tired of what is going on in NTCC, or the people are going to get tired. How anyone of those things will play out I don't know.
NS
Jeff, Travis, CM & Vic:
It is pointless for me to continue hanging around on your Blogda; I am certain I will only be mistreated and abused.
Several attempts have been made already to ensnare and to entrap me in the last day or so...
No thanks!
If you could only see yourselves, you are just as guilty in your false accusations about me, as those you claim to have so abused you over the years.
I have no desire to fight or bicker with you and your ANTI-NTCC ESTABLISHMENT BLODGA.
It is obvious we do not agree, and any positive testimonies concerning NTCC written by people who know the TRUTH are not allowed here.
Sincerely,
Anonymous
Anonymous 2:43am,
What's with the pity party? If you have something good to share about NTCC, then write it!
NS
Nellashara
"I know Jeff STRONGLY disagrees with me on this and we have talked on the phone about it....but lookeee here I am still posting on his blog uncensored!"
Jeff said...
We did talk on the phone and Nellashara is still posting on this blog uncensored and she will always be welcome. I don't think the NTCC will ever develop into a good Christian Organization as long as Mr. Kekel is in change because he has too many bones in his closet. But guess what? Nellashara is totally entitled to express her feelings here and if that is the way she feels than I respect that. No if's, ands or buts. Hopefully she is right about the NTCC one day becoming a good Christian Group. The way I see it they will first have to fess up to their double standards.
"Before you can fix something you have to first admit that it's broke."
I think Comrade is Kekel anyway which may very well be why he is getting so involved, but of course I may very well be wrong.
Jeff
Comrade wrote...
And as to the rest of you - (Including Comrade Stollins & the Extremely Exalted HEAD of Party Policy - HIS EMINENCE COMRADE VICTIMIZOR JOHANSKI)
Jeff said...
Hey Vic: You made the headlines. Boy they sure don't care for you Vic. I know what it is. They are intimidated by your intellect. I truly believe that. The NTCC leadership can't stand someone with brains enough to think on their own. They want a bunch of mindless imps running around their organization saying, "YES Sir, and NO Sir, and God bless you Sir, and Praise God Sir, and can I have permission Sir, and can I clean your house Sir, and is there anything else I can do for the Lord I mean you Sir, can I call you at 2am so you can give me permission to wipe my butt Sir.
That is the kind of people the insecure NTCC leadership likes to have in their org. It make them feel important. But have a brain like Vic? They can't stand that it and it intimidates them because they know Vic is smarter than they are and they can't stand it. So what is their next text book NTCC tactic? To say that Vic is full of PRIDE just because he has a half a brain. The NTCC can't stand people who think outside of "their" box. That is one of the main reasons they had a problem with me because I questioned their stupid rules and didn't just blindly buy off on them.
For all it's worth that was pretty good humor. Victimizer Johanski and Jeff Stollins. Don't forget about Vladimir Travski. Here let me help you out a little bit.
Mikhail Kekpov, Joseph Stolson, Leonid Joneskvitch, Philyenka Kinskonovitch, Rodya Daviski.
I can actually have fun with this you hypocrite. It just eats you up inside that God probably gave Vic more intellect than you. Vic didn't have me say any of this. What I am stating is purely my belief and I am not trying to pump up Vic either. I see it as the truth. You guys can't stand someone who exercises their own free will by using their brain. Only Mikhail Kekpov is allowed to do that in the sorry NTCC.
Jeff.
Jeff,
The very people who come here and post in support of NTCC, are also able to be a witness to the negative things we report (this includes "concerned minister NTCC," and is why the internet has been so effective). Maybe not bear witness to every detail we report in each case, but most (over 90%) of what we report is a shared experience among all.
Why? Well, we are relating what we have heard and seen in conferences, fellowship meetings, Seminary, and from overseer visits; as church members, Pastors, Lay Pastors, and helpers; while visiting people’s home, talking to their wife, husband, and children…
…We see how they live, what they own, what they do (in some cases sneak off and do). How they treat others, how they treat us. What works they have been to (if any), how many times they move, how they treat their immediate family, and other relatives. Compare what they say, preach, and teach to what they do.
All this is shared public experience, the lore of NTCC. So, when you come on here and contradict things that you know have happened (because you have experienced it yourself), you ruin your own credibility, searing your conscience a little bit more each time by this process…because, again, we all have these shared NTCC experiences.
Therefore, the recurring NTCC clamor for more detail, more witnesses, and the lie, “I’ve never seen or experienced that, etc.” is just another case of 'whistling past the graveyard,' as the death knell tolls for the lost innocence of those still involved. Realization has already dawned. All that remains for some is…how to ultimately respond to this realization. Many will re-harden their heart, and re-justify the sinful behaviors they have seen around them (and maybe been a part of), over the years. But, most will eventually leave, just as they always have.
Any negative witness about NTCC is immediately received as persecution, more fuel for their “I’m a martyr…I’m being persecuted for the cause of Christ…NTCC must be a noble cause…we must be winning, etc.” perception; which is de rigueur among NTCCers. Perpetuating many’s already imperious attitude. I have found no more outwardly proud, judgmental, and condemning people than those who are outward holiness, in whatever denomination they may be found. If NTCC were truly persecuted (prison, beatings, torture, death, etc.), a humble spirit would pervade this corporation.
Much is made of “Someone slammed the door in my face during a Blitz,” “Someone’s dog (or goose) chased me during a Blitz,” “We had a flat during a Blitz,” “I lost my job to come to conference,” etc. Never acknowledging the reason you had a flat, or lost your job, or don’t have money for new tires, etc is not because the Devil is fighting this great cause.
Continued below…
The NTCC backpedaling-spin-slander/libel-damage-control-etc. machine is operating at full power (just as it always has). Thankfully, NTCC can't stop the sonrise in people’s life, no matter what they do, or how hard they try. No matter how much they ‘change.’
NTCCers show selective honesty when...they post in defense of NTCC, or post to contradict someone’s personal experience, but won't post when they can testify to the same negative experiences we have been reporting online. NTCC...if you are going to be involved here, be fully involved, not just selectively, and not glossing over (or ignoring) that which is bad about NTCC.
As far as I can recall, none of us has ever said, "Everything about NTCC is bad." Although, the more we dig around, the less good we are finding about NTCC.
It may be interesting to note, the majority of the positive witness for NTCC, comes from those who no longer attend. So, it is not the Ex-NTCCers that are presenting one side of the issue. It is not Ex-NTCCers who are only allowing one side to be presented. As Jeff is so diligent pointing out, we can post anything we want online, unless it is an NTCC sponsored site. NTCC is who is guilty of what they accuse us of (once again).
NTCC...keep the blinders on, you are winning! Just ask me, and I’ll tell ya’.
Yours In Him,
pdq ♪♫♫♪♪♫♫♪♪.♫..♫...♪....♪.....
Comrade wrote...
"it is obvious we do not agree, and any positive testimonies concerning NTCC written by people who know the TRUTH are not allowed here."
Vladimir Stollins said...
Oh contrarier, they are definitely allowed. You can find plenty of positive testimonies on this blog and Casey has written some of them himself. I guess you deliberately failed to read and report that part. I just don't allow without refute, someone to come on here and tell about the good in the NTCC while similtainously stating that we are all wrong when we mention the bad.
Now about your statement concerning people who know the "Truth". Anyone who has been in the NTCC any length of time and knows the truth, and can write about the good, also knows that Mikhail Kekpov has changed the rules to suit his own personal desires. That's the "TRUTH" and that is "WRONG".
Everyone in the NTCC who knows the truth also knows that "Nepotism" reigns throughout the NTCC leadership. Preferential treatment reigns, character assassination reigns when folks decide to leave the NTCC, double standards reign and abuse committed against the lower class is the standard. That's the "Truth".
Jeff
pdq said...
"As far as I can recall, none of us has ever said, "Everything about NTCC is bad." Although, the more we dig around, the less good we are finding about NTCC."
Jeff said...
That is probably one of the most notable statements that has ever been written on this or any other exNTCC Blog. This is a very important statement for people to understand.
When I was preparing to leave the NTCC I knew enough about the NTCC to know that I no longer wanted to be part of it. Because of all the secrecy surrounding the NTCC and it's practices there was much I didn't know. I actually defended certain NTCC leaders for quite a while, even after my departure from the NTCC.
The problem was I really wanted to know the truth so I made phone calls and posted my phone number on the blogs and people called me. Some of those people were still in the NTCC. The more I searched the more damning information I found about the NTCC. I didn't have to search too hard actually. I also concluded that there were many NTCC ministers who had direct knowledge of practices conducted throughout the NTCC that I would have had no knowledge as a church member. I think I knew more than most but not nearly as much as some.
It's like pdq said. The more we dig around the more terrible things we discover about the NTCC. It's like a crime investigation. You don't know the extent of the crime until you start investigating. I am shocked to find all the negative information about the NTCC that is so readily available if you are only will to search a bit.
Guys like Kekel and Olson and RWD however know about all of it, and that is exactly why we all now have such a huge problem with them. Those three are the biggest "cover up artists" in the entire NTCC and I like to refer to them as crooks because that is exactly what they are.
For the record: THE NTCC ISN'T ALL BAD AND THERE IS MUCH GOOD however, the more bad that we dig up, the less any of that good means to any of us. I don't know of any "GOOD" murders, and I don't know of any "GOOD" hypocrites who deliberately use their brethren for GAIN and preach against sins that they willfully practice themselves.
Jeff
"I will tell you like I told the homeless man that I took to McDonalds last night and got him a $25 gift card to use when he gets hungry..."
What did Jesus say about doing your alms before men to be seen of them? Are we supposed to think that you're a paragon of righteousness now because you condescended to give someone a burger or three (please don't misunderstand--it was commendible, and I wish more NTCC ministers would do likewise, but you really shouldn't be sounding the trumpet). I guess you have your reward.
Yeah, buy him a meal card, but don't bring him to church in Graham; like other "bums" (to use RW's terminology), he is not welcome there, and you, like the rest of us, have been instructed not to bring such to service. Despising the poor is a serious offense, and RW is very public about his disdain for them.
So you're not going to hang around here anymore, eh? You think it's a "trap" when I ask you whether RW is an apostle or a liar? I guess it is, because you can't escape the consequences of whichever answer you might give. You are ashamed to say he is an apostle, because there isn't one shred of evidence to support (and plenty to refute) that claim. Yet you don't have the guts or personal integrity to face the truth, which is that he is NOT an apostle, making him a liar (or a nutcase). You're running from the truth.
How about you, Concerned Minister--"Will ye also go away?" I'd like to hear what you think of RW's claim. Is he an apostle? What say you?
Jeff,
What part does personal accountability play in each of the various roles? (i.e. member, minister, executive, etc.)
This has been a point of contention for me with NTCC detractors. If an executive several states away is not fulfilling their obligation before the Lord what should that have to do with a Christian attending a local church? If a pastor in one city teaches heresy or uses the pulpit as a bully pulpit, what should that have to do with a pastor in another town who strives to faithfully present God's word and be a shepherd to God's people?
These are sincere questions? As I meet people from various backgrounds I realize no matter the organization / denomination there are some real issues that Christians must deal with. Is an abusive organization worse than a liberal one? Is an organization that misrepresents the nature of God better than one that errs on the side of being conservative?
What say you?
NTCC Minsiter B.S., M.A.
Is an organization that misrepresents the nature of God better than one that errs on the side of being conservative?
ntcc isn't erring on the side of being conservative when they do the things they preach against.
that is called hypocrisy.
If a person does something they have preached against that is hypocrisy.
However, there is also room for growth. If a person previously understood something to be wrong but through maturity realized that it is not, then they have matured. However, if this is the case it should be explained publicly.
I'm thinking of the issue of eating meat offered to idols. Paul very eloquently explains that the priority of brotherly love should lead us, so that we do not offend a brother. But he also teaches we should not allow non-sense to violate our Christian liberty.
If one person in NTCC is preaching personal convictions and another person in NTCC is living in a manner that violates that persons personal convictions that is not hypocrisy. The issue here would not be hypocrisy but rather the first person ignorantly wasting precious pulpit time to teach things they should not.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
"However, if this is the case it should be explained publicly."
If it is really the case, it WILL be explained publicly. Which is why it's not the case, with respect to the leadership.
I agree with you about personal responsibility, and admit to failure in that I followed unscrupulous manipulators, against biblical principle and my own conscience and common sense. The least I can do now is try to help those similarly misled to see what's going on. Maybe it would have taken less than sixteen years for me to figure it out if someone had been there to give me the information that the NTCC leadership has been so careful to suppress.
We're still waiting for someone to address RW's apostolic claims. Care to step up?
"Is an abusive organization worse than a liberal one?"
An abusive organization is far worse! It is because they know the truth of how to treat people, but refuse to! A liberal organization, God has already taken their "candlestick" and a lot of them don't know the truth.
Minister BA... so I have a question for you...
In the standard of "Holiness" churches is NTCC liberal or abusive?
This is an honest question...
Nellashara
Are we trying to trap you? or just face the facts. If you defend ntcc and it can hold any water. Then go for it. So far you bash us,have nothing to back yourself up with.
Why don't you stop hiding behind that you can't debate. Your asked a question.
If folks that come to ntcc actually asked question. It would not be so foreign to ya'll.
Your used to blind robotic obedience!
CM
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A. asked...
"If a pastor in one city teaches heresy or uses the pulpit as a bully pulpit, what should that have to do with a pastor in another town who strives to faithfully present God's word and be a shepherd to God's people?"
Jeff replied...
First: The funny thing is that when both Concerned Minister and NTCC Minister come on this blog I am actually glad to see them. I haven't quite figured out why that is? We all know and it is certainly no mystery that I am vehemently apposed to the NTCC but I actually like to see those two guys here. The fact is I liked a lot of guys who I knew in the NTCC. A lot of good people get recruited into the NTCC. The shame is that many of them don't remain good but totally the contrary.
Second: NTCC Minister asked a very legitimate question that I quoted above and respectfully, he deserves, and on this blog has the right to an answer. Why? Because his question was asked "quite respectfully", and because we are not the Hammer & Sickle style of folks that Comrade Anonymous likes to suggest. When folks come on here firing heat rounds let there be no mistake that we fire back and rightfully so. That is a God give privilege that we were all deprived of while with the NTCC but those day are over.
Now NTCC Minister: You are absolutely right!!! The double standard and hypocrite pastor has nothing to do with the good and respectable Pastor or visa versa. Notice the capitalization of P's or the lack thereof. I "always" do that for a reason for all it is worth. Having said that, and the fact that you made a very valid and legitimate point, there is only one problem where the "NTCC" is "concerned", no pun intended.
The NTCC as an "organization / corporation" has an underlying agenda to keep people in their church even when they move to another geographical location. With a good pastor one day and with a bad one the next. The org also has an underlying agenda to recruit folks to "their" seminary. You may very well wind up cleaning Kekels house while there, and I will not back up nor be apologetic where that subject is concerned and the condemnation that I express against such reoccurring practices. It is using your people plain and simple. I wouldn't even want to be associated with that practice. Having someone else who is your church member, to clean your dirty clothing and pick your weeds is a deplorable practice and an extreme misuse of people who they call their brethren. We all know what goes on there and it is evident in the rule book which is what this thread is all about anyway.
The NTCC also frequently makes a habit of moving pastors / Pastors around to replace each other while moving to different geographical locations. So consequently the one (P)astor may very well be replace by a different (p)astor and such has happened to me and my family with the changing of pastors. In the NTCC you may be with a good and decent guy only to see him replaced by a "JERK". And unfortunately there is no shortage of jerks in that serve as pastors in the NTCC. The other problem is that RWD and Kekel and Olson know about these jerks but yet they rarely do anything about these poor pastors as long as there is some money still rolling in. In addition to that RWD, Kekel, and Olson by example and by word, teach many of the practices that these jerks practice.
Continuation below...
Jeff
Answer to NTCC Minister Continued...
Notice I wrote Minister with a capital "M".
Denis was a classic example of such oversight \ upbringing and a deliberate re-occurrence of the NTCC leadership turning a blind eye right up to which time that it became too late. Such was in fact the case with Denis and we ALL know that it is true. There are a whole lot more "Denis's" still in the NTCC and the leadership does not care as long as the "Denis's" keep the money rolling in.
My question is why don't the good Pastors that know the type of things that take place in the NTCC simply leave the NTCC and break away from the likes of RWD, Olson, and Kekel? I know that it is not just that simple, but it can take place if, it is planned and prepared for over time.
Jeff
NTCC Minister said...
"The issue here would not be hypocrisy but rather the first person ignorantly wasting precious pulpit time to teach things they should not."
Jeff said...
And who knows, there could be "some" truth to that and for that matter there "is" some truth to that.
Here once again is the problem. There is no pink elephant here. We all know who is being referenced here. RWD and Kekel. Here is the problem NTCC Minister and it has been validly stated over and over and over and over again by "MANY" witnesses. "MANY EYE WITNESSES"! NTCC Minister I had to emphasize the many witnesses and the over and over part.
RWD consistently claimed and insisted that all he did and the rules that he enforced came by, and were by the direction of God via the Holy Spirit. I didn't make those boastful claims; RWD did. We have stated this over and over and everyone has heard RWD make such claims. So now the very rules that in fact were stated to have come from God are no longer rules at all or they are now considered by Kekel to be simply "policy".
Did God mature spiritually NTCC Minister or was RWD simply and plainly "WRONG" in the first place or is there truly compromise in the NTCC?
The other problem is that Kekel has insulted all of us by "insisting that we are all mistaken and as Kekel put it we all have misconstrued what was taught for years by RWD and at least 95% of his pastors who also made claims that their teaching came from God.
So guess what? Who should one truly trust to follow as the one that God has legitimately sent for the perfecting of the saints?
I can tell you three people who I absolutely don't trust not even one bit. RWD, Kekel, and Olson. We don't reference Olson nearly as much as the other two but he may actually be the worst of the three.
Mr. humble himself is some kind of character I have grown to learn. He reminds me of humble Haman in the book of Esther. That guy knows so much dirt about the NTCC but he consistently covers it all up.
Do you know that years ago a young lady talked to Olson about sexual impropriety that she insisted RWD had with her, and Olson told her that she needed to go find another church? I'm not making this up. This is not an exaggeration. This lady is still alive and she still affirms that what she said took place. I'm just itching to post her name but she prefers anonymity and I don't guess I blame her. I don't want anyone coming on here to suggest that I am lying because I will delete it. I didn't make this up so don't accuse me of being a liar. Whether RWD did it or not it was brought to Olson's attention, and he should have had the back bone to do something about it. Olson is sorry.
I could care less if RWD messed with her because it was alleged to have taken place years ago and everyone makes mistakes in life.
The problem is that Olson was of such low character that he swept it under the carpet and told the young lady that she would be better off if she just left the NTCC all together. What kind of garbage is that? I have more respect for RWD if that is possible who wanted to get him a little bit, than I do for Olson who claims to be a christian leader while in the process of doing no more than cover it all up just to protect RWD and the NTCC's reputation? Olson knew the real deal behind Denis's departure as well. How can Olson live with himself and still remain a minister? I could see him openly living as a quote "sinner" and living quite comfortably with his conscience but a minister who is a high ranking leader within the NTCC's hierarchy?
Olson is something else.
Jeff
Jeff,
I also think Rev. Olson is the worst of the bunch. Not only does he go behind and clean up after Pastor Davis' bunglings, he unswervingly protects Pastor Davis 'testimony' to the detriment of the family of God.
That Pastor Davis has hurt very many people is inarguable, Rev. Olson (and the rest of the NTCC crew) continues to enable Pastor Davis to 'keep on keepin' on.'
My view is, the person who protects the guilty is worse than the guilty.
Talk to you later Jeff.
pdq
pdq wrote...
"My view is, the person who protects the guilty is worse than the guilty."
Jeff said...
Amen to that. Talk to you later pdq.
Jeff
Will the real apostle Davis please stand up ... please stand up ...
"Will the real apostle Davis please stand up ... please stand up ..."
ROFL
Thats funny!
NS,
As to your question about NTCC in comparison to other "holiness" churches, are they liberal or abusive? I'm not in a good position to make a comparison to other "holiness" churches because my experience is limited. I have met and spoke with other other "holiness" christians. Based on that I would say NTCC is more liberal than many "holiness" churches. (Not in orthodoxy but in orthopraxy.) Now, there is the Wesleyan and Nazarene church who are holiness in doctrine but do not practice an outward standard anymore. NTCC is obviously less liberal than those churches in that capacity.
As to abusive I can't say.
Vic,
As to Pastor Davis being an apostle I think it is important to distinguish between those who built the NT church upon the foundation Jesus had laid and the position of an aposlte that God has given the churches. Pastor Davis has definitely fulfilled the office of apostle. Eph. 4
Jeff,
In Revelation Jesus had fault to find with various churches. Some of the churches Jesus commended. The church in Sardis received no such commendation. However, Jesus points out that even this church had people in it who were doing right and would not lose their reward on the basis of what the broader condition of their church was.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Jeff,
As to the "good" pastors leaving NTCC. Several things immediately come to mind. One, if you believe you are called to pastor where then do you go? I am not aware of many former NTCC ministers who are preachers with a different group.
Two, the people in the church you pastor. They are not easy to walk away from even if you are not in lock step with the NTCC leadership.
Three, because people are people everywhere you go what if you leave NTCC, join another group, fulfill their requirements to minister in their churches and then begin to find out they have their own issues? I have a feeling many previous NTCC members are not in churches today because of this very possibility.
So, is a person better off being what Jesus has called them to be in NTCC (a known quantity) or starting over (with an unknown quanitity)?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Vic,
Your statement,
"I agree with you about personal responsibility, and admit to failure in that I followed unscrupulous manipulators, against biblical principle and my own conscience and common sense."
Are you saying you practiced the same practices that you now disagree with or that you sat under their ministry? I think there is a distinction. In your own estimate do you believe that you were manipulative as a minister in NTCC? If so, how so?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
I'm impressed! You were spot on with your answer to my question! That's exactly how I feel! I love "Theo-speak!" I went through theological internship through another church/college and it was a blessing, however when NTCC found out about it...lets just say it wasn't good.
I too believe that NTCC is more liberal as compared with other "Holiness Doctrine" churches. But one man liberalness is another man's compromise.
I don't think NTCC is compromising but has been progressive in its approach. However this has become an achilles heel because the leaders refuse to recognize/admit to it. Minister I believe you are progressive...am I right?
Nellashara
"Are you saying you practiced the same practices that you now disagree with or that you sat under their ministry? I think there is a distinction. In your own estimate do you believe that you were manipulative as a minister in NTCC? If so, how so?"
Mostly I mean I sat under RW's "ministry;" I could never force myself, as a pastor, to imitate some of its coarser aspects. I believe I would have been classified among the most benign of NTCC's ministerial class. I wasn't really the hellfire/brimstone type of scaremonger, or one who used church members for personal gain. Yet a certain amount of manipulation was inevitable, because I had bought into the system. So yes, I tried to subtly guilt a few to go to BS, or to give up ten percent of their income, or to refrain from marrying outside their races--these and similar things that, as faithful borg drones, were expected to promote. I wasn't being malicious, but now I see how damaging some of these actions were, and regret having taken them.
Many NTCC ministers are similarly well-intentioned, but nonetheless expose people to a "church" that will ultimately prove to be a dead end. Most of us have fond memories of our earliest times in NTCC, when we had sincere but misguided pastors who at least did care for us. But as we progressed through the system, Christian joy and liberty were systematically crushed out of us as we were molded into robots for the machine.
I should have never permitted that to happen to me, and admit that it was my fault for not leaving sooner. Hopefully, others will be more responsive, and won't dismiss the legitimate proddings of their consciences as "lies of the Devil" (as they've been conditioned to do).
"As to Pastor Davis being an apostle I think it is important to distinguish between those who built the NT church upon the foundation Jesus had laid and the position of an aposlte that God has given the churches."
Well, you may think it important, but no such distinction was ever made in my BS training; we were taught that RW was every bit as much an apostle and in the same league as Peter, James, John, and Paul. Even Moses name was invoked as a character comparable (but perhaps not quite as advanced) as the Migthy RW. Speculation was tolerated that he is one of the 24 Elders, and that on earth he is "first up before the throne of God." These accolades went forth from the pulpit in his presence more than once, and he never objected or sought to temper them in any way.
It's a con job. He's not an apostle, even a "modern" non-12 version.
NTCC Minister said...
In Revelation Jesus had fault to find with various churches. Some of the churches Jesus commended. The church in Sardis received no such commendation. However, Jesus points out that even this church had people in it who were doing right and would not lose their reward on the basis of what the broader condition of their church was.
Jeff said...
You are right. Jesus said: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. He did say what you mentioned about Sardis and that there were a "few" who hadn't defiled their garments. What kind of church would you rather be a part of? Sardis? or Smyrna? I suggest that the NTCC is cross between Laodicea and Sardis. Certainly where the leadership is concerned that is the case.
Why don't you start your own Smyrna or even an Ephesus. Jesus offered reproof toward Ephesus but I would take that over what he had to say about Sardis. I can see it now. Hey Jesus, I think I will stick around Sardis because where else can I go? You have the book or Revelation to teach you what kind of church "not" to be a part of. Those seven churches didn't certainly before the book was written.
Jeff
NTCC Minister asked Vic...
Are you saying you practiced the same practices that you now disagree with or that you sat under their ministry? I think there is a distinction. In your own estimate do you believe that you were manipulative as a minister in NTCC? If so, how so?
Jeff responded to a question that wasn't presented to him but he decided to respond anyway...
NTCC Minister: Do you think it is possible that he responded to someone in his congregation like you did to the lady in the previous thread when you suggested that maybe she had homosexual tendencies? The way you responded to her is the type of practice that I think Vic now disagrees with. Just a guess? I have never met an NTCC minister who wasn't manipulative and wrongfully so to one degree or another. It goes right along with the example that RWD lays out by his very own actions. Manipulation is the NTCC way.
I found out just last night that there have been far more than one NTCC pastors wife who has worked on a job and it has been allowed by the higher NTCC leadership. It is apparent that the NTCC leadership has allowed certain women who have been married to NTCC ministers to work on paid jobs all along, but it was kept quiet from the general population. To teach that it is unlawful for a woman to work on a job while simultaneously giving an exception to that policy is a manipulative double standard practice in itself.
To teach that tithing is a mandate based on 1Cor 16:2 is certainly manipulative and every NTCC pastor has done that because 1Cor 16:2 is STILL found in the NTCCs doctrinal statement to support paying tithe.
1Cor 16:2 has nothing what so ever to do with tithing. If you are a minister in the NTCC and you have an NTCC ministers license authorizing you to quote "minister" while in the NTCC than the NTCC's doctrinal statement becomes "YOUR" doctrinal statement. Whether you have ever read it or not does not excuse you from having responsibility for what is contained in the doctrinal statement.
To deliberately and falsely site a scripture to support a doctrine in your doctrinal statement that the scripture has nothing to do with is definitely manipulative and deceptive. I've been bringing this up on factnet, Tracy's blog and here for about a year and the scripture still remains. I know NTCC people have read what I have written and I know they know that 1Cor 16:2 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH TITHING. So why does it still remain? Because to take it out would be admitting that they have been wrong all along but to leave 1Cor 16:2 in the doctrinal statement to support tithing means that they remain willing to deceive people just for the sake of gain.
Well NTCC Minister that is manipulation at it's best the way I see it and Vic realized that he no longer wanted to be a part of it and I decided the same which is why I completely stopped soul winning for the NTCC. I'm not going to lead an unsuspecting soul to a bunch of NTCC leaders who promote double standards and false doctrine and in the case that I mentioned for the sake of monetary gain.
Jeff
Nellashara,
Have to disagree with you on ntcc compromise as progression. When it happens it is to pad there wallets. They give and then they take it back. Ex.Ok for kids to play sports. It will not last.And then it will be taken back. They made a mistake. For your Own good,it needs to be a so called policy. Ntcc leaders really know better for folks. AS IF! There rules are not to help folks. But to contain them. Put them under there thumb. IF ,IF any of there rules was to be helpful that would be different. But there not. RW doesn't want folks to play cards because he was accused of gambling YEARS AGO! Ntcc rules are based on Personal experience's by rw.
So how can it be progression. When God told rw from the start that these rules are from God.
IT IS COMPROMISE!
CM
CM wrote...
So how can it be progression, when God told RW from the start that these rules are from God?
IT IS COMPROMISE!
Jeff said...
I see no possible way that anyone could have made that point more effective.
I have to totally agree CM. Progression has NOTHING to do with it. It is changing the rules to suit the desires and the agenda of the Kekel family. Certainly not progression. Willful double standards written off as policy vs the mandated rules that we all know previously existed.
I just think that Nellashara probably hasn't heard RWD make all the statements that we have heard with our own ears. Nellashare probably hasn't heard these rules taught directly by RWD like we have and she has probably never heard RWD say how it all came from GAAAAWWWD.
You see Nellashara I have had six different NTCC pastors and they all taught basically the same rules. They all said that no one could question these rules because they came from RWD who received them from God because RWD was the "MAN OF GOD".
RWD would make the same claims in conference and we all heard him. I have been to several conferences dating back as early as the mid 80s. RWD has been claiming that everything that he does comes by the direction and inspiration of God all along. He has even said and I quote, "If you have a problem with one of my pastors you have a problem with me and if you have a problem with me you have a problem with God." There is nothing progressive about that. That was a definitive statement but now the rules have changed, so was RWD lying and the rules never came with God to start with, or is the NTCC in compromise now that they are breaking the rules? Which one? I would like an answer form anyone. Lying or compromise? Or is it lying, double standards, and compromise? I personally think it is all three put together.
Jeff
Jeff,
I realize the tithe issue is a hot button for you. So, I will attempt to broaden your understanding of the verse you question and perhaps you will come to appreciate that it does have bearing on tithe and offering.
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The context of this verse deals with Paul taking up a collection from the Gentile churches for the the Jewish saints that were suffering. The gift would be a token of solidarity between the Gentile and Jewish churches.
That being the context there are still a tremendous amount of principles we can glean from this verse. I have pasted some of Albert Barnes commentary on the verse. I realize it is boring but he does a good job in pointing us towards the principles of giving that are demontrated in this verse.
Let every one of you - Let the collection be universal. Let each one esteem it his duty and his privilege to give to this object. It was not to be confined to the rich only, but was the common duty of all. The poor, as well as the rich, were expected to contribute according to their ability.
- In view of this important verse, we may remark:
(1) That there is here clear proof that the first day of the week was observed by the church at Corinth as holy time. If it was not, there can have been no propriety in selecting that day in preference to any other in which to make the collection. It was the day which was set apart to the duties of religion, and therefore an appropriate day for the exercise of charity and the bestowment of alms. There can have been no reason why this day should have been designated except that it was a day set apart to religion, and therefore deemed a proper day for the exercise of benevolence toward others.
(2) this order extended also to the churches in Galatia, proving also that the first day of the week was observed by them, and was regarded as a day proper for the exercise of charity toward the poor and the afflicted. And if the first day of the week was observed, by apostolic authority, in those churches, it is morally certain that it was observed by others. This consideration, therefore, demonstrates that it was the custom to observe this day, and that it was observed by the authority of the early founders of Christianity.
(3) Paul intended that they should be systematic in their giving, and that they should give from principle, and not merely under the impulse of feeling.
(4) Paul designed that the habit of doing good with their money should be constant. He, therefore, directed that it should be on the return of each Lord’s Day, and that the subject should be constantly before their minds.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
Jeff,
One more commentary for you my friend. This one is from John Wesley. His is important because the holiness pentecostal movement came out of methodism. He in some regards is the father of it.
1Co 16:2 Let every one - Not the rich only: let him also that hath little, gladly give of that little. According as he hath been prospered - Increasing his alms as God increases his substance. According to this lowest rule of Christian prudence, if a man when he has or gains one pound give a tenth to God, when he has or gains an hundred he will give the tenth of this also. And yet I show unto you a more excellent way. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Stint yourself to no proportion at all. But lend to God all you can.
I am in total agreement with Wesley here. We should give out of principle a tithe. However, we should hold all that we have with an open palm ready to be used for God's glory.
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
ntcc minister,
i would have to take issue with you on referring to old time commentaries to bolster your slanted view, although you have a good ability to articulate your viewpoints that is not the end all. if that were the case then the best speakers would always be right and we know that is not the case.
one of the most basic hermeneutical principles is this:
1. Is it taught in the gospel's
2. Is it taught in the doctrinal epistles
3. Is it practiced in the book of acts
I challenge you to show me just one example of tithing being taught or instituted in any of these never mind all three.
my personal belief is this:
The people who hold to tithing are doing so for the most part out of fear or obligation, they tend to view the people who do not believe that tithing is a NT practice as just being 'cheap' or unwilling to give, this may be true in some cases, but in my point of view the Bible should be rightly divided from an unbiased perspective.
care to elaborate?
t
NTCC Minister: Below is what is written in the bible.
1Cor 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
16:3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.
16:4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me.
16:5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia.
Now look at Rom 15:25
15:25 But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints.
15:26 For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem.
Here is what is written in the NTCCs doctrinal statement:
"We recognize the scriptural duty of all people as well as ministers, to pay tithes unto the Lord. Tithes should be used for the support of the active ministry and for the propagation of the Gospel and the work of the Lord. It is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes."
Jeff said...
Here is the first problem with wrongfully using 1Cor 16:2 to support tithing, and here is what is wrong with what you wrote and concluded.
The NTCC says that tithing "is not to be given to charity or used for other purposes". I didn't write it the NTCC did. Well what did 1Cor 16 start with? "Now concerning the collection for the saints" Look what Romans 15 says: "But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints. For it hath pleased them of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem"
Jeff said...
"Taking up a collection for the Saints" and "making a contribution for the poor saints which are at Jerusalem" is giving to charity which is exactly what the NTCC says to "not" do with tithing. So there is a fundental problem with these scriptures as they relate to the NTCC doctrinal statement right off the bat. Taking up a collection for poor saints has nothing to do with paying 10% of your gross income and you know it.
The second thing is that Paul said:
"Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come"
You wanted to site Wesley because it supports what you want to teach but that is not what Paul said. He said to take up a collection the first day of the week "so there would be no gatherings when he came."
NTCC Minister: You can try and flip that around to mean what you want it to mean while trying to make it appear to be a religious observance that has nothing to do with tithing. The reason that Paul gave concerning the time that he instructed folks to take up the collection was so there would be no gatherings when he came.
Paul wasn't trying to fulfill the law with some kind of religious observance. Here is what Paul thought about that subject: Col chapter 2. "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" When you read that scripture it doesn't seem that Paul is too interested in fulfilling Old Testament religious observances and that wasn't what he was trying to accomplish in 1Cor 16:2 either. Regardless or the time that he instructed folks to take up the collection, he was simply taking up a collection for the saints who were in need. He was perpetuating a practice that is for the most part not even practiced by the NTCC and is forbidden by the NTCCs doctrinal statement that tithe money be used for. It's called charity!
continued below...
We are talking about the giving of money or possessions to less fortunate people. That is what Paul was doing in 1Cor 16 and Rom 15 and that is what the NTCC doctrinal statement says not to do where tithing is concerned and that is why the NTCC is being deceptive and manipulative when they use that scripture in their doctrinal statement because it has NOTHING to do with tithing. It has to do with taking up a collection to give to POOR folks.
What a novel concept. One that the NTCC is not too interested in fulfilling. They take up collections for rich folks when ever they travel around the US to preach. Taking up a collection for RWD is a sorry practice and it totally contradicts what Paul was trying to accomplish in 1Cor 16:2.
Jeff
pro·gres·sive (pr-grsv)
1. Proceeding in steps; continuing steadily by increments: i.e. progressive change.
2. Promoting or favoring progress toward better conditions or new policies, ideas, or methods: i.e. a progressive politician; progressive business leadership.
For clarification by progressive I meant definition 1.
Nellashara
http://homechurchhelp.com/tithing.html
Have to look behind why they are changing. Is it out of concern that they were WRONG! Or just out of protecting there own behinds?
Did Paul's admonition necessitate all the saints support the offering in a manner that was proportional with their income? Yes. What is a tithe. A principal of giving that increases proportionally with ones income.
T,
Do you really want to throw out wisdom of past generations? It's funny that the anonymous poster with the house church link included, that article was blaming the contemporary church and T. is blaming old commentaries. What if we go back tot he 1st century. The Didache teaches tithing. Jesus in the gospels said we should not leave it undone.
T,
Studies have demonstrated that 80% of the worlds evangelical wealth is located in North America. Does that necessitate a high responsibility for stewardship? I would say so.
Let's conduct our own study. Those Christians present who are enjoying God's blessing, are you willing to put up or shut up?
What percentage of your income goes back into the kingdom of God? Does the Spirit leading your giving or your whims lead you to be more generuous than those committed to the principal of tithing?
For me last year I believe it was 17%. I generally trend around 20%. Now I'm not telling you what that represents but the Lord knows. Anyone else willing to be honest?
NTCC Minister B.S., M.A.
"Jesus in the gospels said we should not leave it undone."
He did not; he said that his disciples, who were Jews under the Law of Moses (which mandates tithing) shouldn't leave it undone. Rightly divide, brother, rightly divide!
I used to waste 20-30 percent of my income on NTCC too. Since I quit doing that, I have been blessed far beyond what I experienced in the org.
Prove me herewith, saith Vic: quit squandering the substance God has entrusted to your stewardship by giving it to rich religious charlatans, and see if God won't open the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing.
It's working for everyone I know.
Minister,
With all due respect, you have now revealed why you choose to believe in tithing; its because you feel that your righteousness is enhanced by your 17% tribute.
Im sorry, but i cannot accept the teaching's of an older commentary if they are not biblically accurate. The older commentators have very much to offer and are usually much closer to the truth than we are, yet, i would not put to much stock in the words of any man.
I read Spurgeon, Morgan, Loyd-Jones, Redpath, Ironside on a regular basis, they add much wisdom to my study of the scripture, yet they are not flawless and neither am i.
For example, I believe that G.Campbell Morgan is the best commentator of his generation and had the clearest insight into the scriptures. Now he taught that the man that Paul describes in Romans 7 is definately an unregerate man. thoough his insight in most things is incredible i would not hold to this teaching of Romans 7, because i do not believe it to be scriptural
We really have to put the Bible's clear teaching above our own personal bias or our own desire for self-righteousness.
sincerely,
t
PS- i read Spurgeon who was a 5 point calvinist and i read Morgan who was an arminian. are you open to those who dont hold to your opinion?
oh, i give 18% too.. sorry
t
NTCC Minister said...
"Did Paul's admonition necessitate all the saints support the offering in a manner that was proportional with their income? Yes. What is a tithe. A principal of giving that increases proportionally with ones income."
Jeff said...
No you have it totally wrong. The word "euodoo" in Greek for "(God)hath prospered him" has many meanings. Look up word #2137 in Strong's. More often than not it is referencing someone who has had and easy or successful journey. Or it just simply means causing one to be prosperous or more specifically "Successful". Look it up I did. You can not quantify those references to "prosperity" as you can quantify what you called "income".
Now having said that I'm a fair broker as I always say and I "am" sure it was a monetary collection and I am also sure what it meant. Look up the Greek word #3048. "Collection" or "Logeia" in Greek means: "A collection of money gathered for the relief of the poor". I'm no rookie Sir. That right there just killed your hypothesis dead in the water. DEAD. Does the NTCC give their tithe to the poor in their church after having taken it up as a voluntary collection? NO!!!!!!!! Paul also said to the Corinthian church in his second book: 2Cor 9:7 "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver" Paul didn't teach double standards like the NTCC does. This wasn't a gift given out of "necessity" in the first place.
It was a voluntary collection taken up to be given to POOR, POOR, POOR, POOR saints in the Christian church.
Further more no matter how you want to twist the scripture that's proof that it is still a GIFT of CHARITY and a COLLECTION that was taking up such as an offering specifically to be given to the poor.
In the scripture it was even worded as a "collection" verbatim and it was to be given to "POOR SAINTS" You are doing the same thing the NTCC does when they "twist" scriptures to suit their own agenda.
You can in no way twist taking up a collection that will be given to poor Christians in Jerusalem as something that anyone could even remotely refer to as tithe.
I gift of charity is not tithe NTCC Minister, and I can't believe that you are trying to make it equate to paying tithe. It was a collection taken up for poor saints and we all know that without doubt.
I know it wasn't tithe but for the sake of a good discussion if it was, why doesn't the NTCC take up a tithe collection for distribution to all of it's poor saints? In fact if that is the case why doesn't the NTCC give all of it's tithe to poor saints if that is what the scripture was talking about and that was the example that Paul was trying to set concerning tithe?
Let me be clear least I be misquoted... "It was not tithe", however if you believe what you are saying you should redistribute the tithe money that comes into your church to all the poor saints in the NTCC.
The problem is the NTCC doctrinal statement prohibits you from giving tithe money to charity, so are you wrong about your interpretation or is the NTCC wrong when they prohibit their ministers from redistributing tithe money throughout the poor saint population?
Either way their doctrinal statement as it pertains to tithing is WRONG.
Jeff
Try to follow this logic:
NTCC: One penny short of tithe- you go to hell. NTCC: believe on Christ AND pay tithe- you are saved. This is salvation by works!
NTCC: No God robbers go to heaven.
Paul the Apostle "I robbed other churches..." Paul was self-described robber. NTCC: He cannot go to heaven. Odd though, he went already to the 3rd heaven!
NTCC: No woman can go to heaven with cut hair. If God lets one woman get in who cuts her hair- He'll have to apologize to the angels that sinned. Again, salvation by works. Do something to merit heaven.
NTCC: Making the Rapture the hardest thing you'll ever do- once you've made it- you've made it. I guess that would imply keeping your heart right, undeceived. Yet look at McK digging up dirt on VJ from 20 years ago! what venom! what disclosure of hate! Some compass land and sea to make one proselyte and then make him two-fold the child of...... well, you fill in the rest.
NTCC: ministers pay tithe. I thought the Levites collected tithe- not paid them! Ministers live of the gospel- not send them to Jerusalem.
Tithes from Abraham were a tax he paid to pass thru the land. Jesus preached under the law to Jews as Vic just said.
We all know that I Cor 16:2- was for the poor saints! not the poor preachers! Paul lived in his rented house in Jerusalem- (Acts 28) He could have built a mansion- but did not! He received people- did not hide from them! Yee-owww!
NTCC: We are God's unique end-time movement. (judge themselves by themselves are NOT wise. Their preachers are a shame, do not know the Bible at all! Ignorance can only breed more ignorance! Other real Bible Schools actually teach the Bible.
NTCC Library? at Graham- can hold any books? no... because they'd have to write them all! They disagree with so many! I saw a video on their website with a man with a moustache! what compromise! acc to their own "gospel" their "standards" are un-sustainable as the current coming apart at the seams is! TV's tight dresses! yikes!
NTCC: No one ever left NTCC and did anything for God? Have they done a survey? they'd better check. If the are found liars- Rev 21:8 is their destiny- as they themselves preached!
Dd:
Didn't you know that the NTCC does an "exit" interview for members who decide to leave! When the member decides to leave, the Pastor always asks the departing member to tell the truth about their reason for leaving.
The pastor does this so he can take the reason that the member gives for leaving, and use it against him or her. This is the beginning of the smear the departing members character campaign.
NTCC a business. Not a family. No Friends. All spies. And the spies do communicate instantly. Have they not read Mein Kempf or the 3rd Reicth. Or Mao or Lenin or Stalwart? Or Ork from Mork? Good understudies, they. Intimidate. Destroy the id. Manipulate. Pressure to breaking point & beyond. People like dumb sheep, must prod, degrade, shame.
But the gospel gives peoples hope, LIFE, grace, the Divine Nature of God. If my reconazition serve me, as such.
Let me help you out a little Anon: I think you meant Stalin, not Stalwart. No one is perfect here but take your time Bro and reread what you write. You've got some serious stuff going on there.
Give me a break Anon! He got 5 of the 6 right! Don't start with your NTCC style "study to show thyself approved... I mean above everyone" scripture!
Don't you know people sometimes purposely write dumb things to see if you're really observant? They did this all the time at NTCC, breaking the Kings English, saying absolutely crazy things- it's that tactic of mind control: say something dumb- if you get corrected- rebuke the one trying to correct you. This then knocks all off their mental foundation of sense. Tactic: give out conflicting sets of instructions, to cause people to question their own thinking, making them non-thinkers, just robots, obeying blindly. Remember "To obey is better than to understand". NTCC Chapter 5:3
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