Thread #35 There was a report recently, that RW Davis said in a church service that people from the blog were threatening his life. For the record, this is a complete lie. Nobody has EVER threatened Davis from this site or any other blog that I know of. Jeff has stated on a comment that we don't wish harm on the ntcc leaders. We DO wish they would go away and stop ruining people's lives, but we do not wish harm on them or their families. I consider this accusation very serious, and want to head it off.
As I've stated before, I believe Davis is a textbook narcissist-- and this allegation doesn't surprise me one bit. He has to create a false crisis to make it look like the devil is fighting him, because he has falsely led everyone to believe he is a man of God-- which his actions show he is not. A REAL man of God does not harm people and intentionally split up marriages. Also, a sign of a cult is that they feel they are always under persecution, when in reality their own abusive and manipulative ways cause the so-called persecution.
Do not believe this lie-- nobody has threatened Davis or anyone else!
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
74 comments:
I would be interested in knowing what the exact accusation was and how it was worded. It is true that no one on this blog has made a death threat in any of their posts. There is however, no way of knowing whether someone who posts regularly on here made a death threat over the phone, trough the mail, or otherwise. There is also no way of knowing whether someone who claims to be a blogger from this blog called in a death threat.
It is important to know the details of the accusation in order to determine if there is any validity to it. There is also no way of telling how he came by this information of a death threat. Did someone claim to have read a death threat here and lie to him? In which case, he would only be passing on information that he was given. I am fairly certain he doesn't read this blog.
Is there any way we can get more accurate information on what was said in the church service that night?
The original claim from t:
by the way,
my brother told me today that davis was preaching last night and said he was getting death threats from people on the blog
jeff is that you??
just kidding
he is either being lied too by his little boys or he is trying to make himself into some kind of a martyr
just so you all know!
would anyone who was there care to clarify?
t
This statement is kind of vague and we don't have the exact quote. It also leads me to believe that t is uncertain because he asks for clarification from someone who was there. That, by the way, is all I am asking for; clarification.
-concerned minister NTCC
This is what t wrote as Concerned Minister quoted:
"my brother told me today that davis was preaching last night and said he was getting death threats from people on the blog"
As Concerned Minister suggested the key word here is "the" as in "the blog" For starters, does "the blog" mean "this" blog? I don't know because t didn't specify. Maybe t could help us out on this one. The other question is how did the supposed death threats come; from over the blog, by letter, or from over the phone? Concerned Minister did make some very VALID points.
The one thing I would say is that this is the only active NOT NTCC blog that I know of, so it stands to reason that this blog would have been the one referenced. Another valid question is, how could anyone be so foolish and stupid to make a death threat and sign or give their name in association with the threat? I can't see that happening. I would have to reasonably assume that t's original statement is credible and that RWD to some degree is delusional.
I know enough about RWD to know that is an accurate representation of his character. I also know that when you treat people as bad as he has for so many years, it is surprising that there haven't been a whole lot of threats made, and I'm sure RWD understands the possibilities that exist in that area.
The fact is, I'm quite confident that there have been threats made over the years, but I am also quite confident that none came from an active participator of this blog.
Jeff
when has rw ever told the truth?He loves to stir the pot up. When he thinks he is safe. And nobody is going to question what he says. How is anyone going to get clarification. That means asking rwo for more details. He could take that as rebellion. And the stupid saying,if you don't like it there is the door! Which is why so many never ask questions!
CM
"concerned" You are being way too nice. These people are LIARS! You will never get a straight answer from them. All you have to do is look at the statement from t. Things that jump out at me are the fact that he heard this from his brother: 1. Is his brother at Graham? 2. If his brother heard this statement made, why would t need clarification? I think t made this one up. Why do they do this kind of thing? Of course, now they will scramble to tell a bunch of lies to cover up what I just said, but that is to be expected.
Seeing through exntccer lies
STEL, I know you are pretty stirred up man, but you need to chill out. You can't get to the bottom of a controversy by shouting at people that they are liars. What I am seeking is facts and none of the language you have used has been successful in bringing out any of those. I'm not attacking, but cautioning you. These people already have a perception that NTCC ministers only know how to bully people and you are only feeding this notion. Take a couple of breaths and relax.
-concerned minister NTCC
Hi STEL. I see you prefer the same approach. We are all just a bunch of liars right? How about something a little more original?
Once again Concerned Minister thoroughly outclassed you. He made valid credible assessments. Then directly after, I made some of the same. t's statement was vague admittedly so, however not a statement that could be considered inaccurate or a "lie" as you so eloquently put it.
You are quite eloquent STEL. By the way; how did you develop such an extensive vocabulary?
Lets see: "LIE", LIAR", "LYING", "LIES", "LIED". That is pretty good STEL! Does that accurately describe all of our exNTCCer statements? Well, let me get going STEL so I can continue being a liar on this blog.
Take care STEL.
P.S. Relax because it will be alright. Don't get so worked up. You know you are winning because that is what Olson always says, so you have nothing to worry about.
Jeff
i will clarify:
the exact conversation went something like this:
bro: Hey, i gotta ask you something...last night Pastor Davis was preaching and mentioned that he, rev ohlson, and rev johnson had been getting death threats, and i believe he said it was from a blog. do you know anything about that
T: not that i am aware of and i pretty much keep pace with any anti-ntcc blog. that is kind of crazy, i have never heard anything even remotely close to someone saying anything like that
bro: i was just wondering if you knew anything, i think he said it was from a blog...
t: it wouldnt surprise me though if someone did want to kill him, he has done a lot of damage and hurt a lot of people
t: but no....maybe his is just maiking it up to appear as a martyr?
bro: yeah right
end of conversation
t
concerned,
the only way we can truly know the details is if davis puts them forth, and you know that is not going to happen, right?
t
Both Jeff and CM take stabs at Pastor to try to justify their belief that he lied. The fact is that they would rather believe the hearsay than to analyze the accusation and realize it is just that. I don't think I am engaged in bullying. They may think I am bullying them, but I'm only stating the facts against the backdrop of their lies. It seems harsh, but they need to grow up and stop feeling sorry for themselves.
Seeing through exntccer lies
Jeff,
Davis tells people not to be on blogs...yet he says he has received a death threat from a blog. In order for a church member to investigate they would have to do what...go on a blog.
"T" sounded "Lima Charlie" to me as in loud and clear.
Davis makes proclamations of how the enemies of God are against him in vague terms, yet will not name the accusations like escrows etc. Everybody that I know (who is innocent) has named line by line of what has been charged against him and refuted it. I'm sorry, but "There's the door." "And what goes on in the the Kekel's house is their business." doesn't explain anything!
Anon!
btw STEL,
you never responded to my questions on the previous post....are you going to?
guys, i think what we have here is a huge age/maturity difference between concerned minister and STEL
im sure STEL is still a boy and will grow with age.
but, i would appreciate an answer to my queestions
t
Woah! OK, As I was posting my last comment, t comes on and totally proves that this is nothing more than hearsay. More than once, he quotes his brother saying "I think he said it was from a blog" To me, that says his brother isn't even sure of the source. So why need you any further to carry on with this lying rhetoric pretending that Pastor said he got death threats from a blog?
Seeing through exntccer lies
Seer of nonsense,
It's people like you that keep NTCC down! That is why sin is allowed to permeate in the congregation unchecked. Witnesses are brought forth with evidence(as in Dennis) yet they are brushed away as being fault- finders and crossed up. Sin will continue to dwell behind closed doors in NTCC and fester because of people like you who allow sin to breed in the camp.
At least Concerned Minster (and many others) are trying to fix and understand the "wrongs" that people have brought forth. Its people like you Seer that keeps NTCC from reaching its true potential.
OK mister t, Are you referring to this slew of foolishness?
in my opinion,
kekel has done the least of everyone in the org....period.
has he ever gone out to start a work?
does he go soul winning?
has he ever had to work a real job to support his church?
has he ever had to mow his own lawn?
has he ever had to help his wife out with household chores? (she has those done for her)
can anyone name one single person he has lead to the lord?
My answer:
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Seeing through exntccer lies
Jeff said...
To the best of his recollection, t quoted the following concerning his brother statements to him:
"and i believe he said it was from a blog."
"i was just wondering if you knew anything, i think he said it was from a blog"
Jeff's conclusions:
It is obvious that t is not lying because why would he use the words "believe" and "think" to perpetuate a lie? If I was going to lie I certainly wouldn't throw those two words into the statement so I can safely conclude that the conversation did occur between he and his brother. I never doubted that anyway but I needed to write that to make my case.
Secondly: It is apparent that his brothers recollection was not ABSOLUTE based upon t's quote. However his brother did suggest twice, that he seemed to remember the word "blog" come up when RWD spoke of the threats.
My other theory I will keep to myself for personal reasons but it is clear that there is not much clarity concerning this topic. Hey how did you like that; "clear", "clarity"; they went kind of good together.
The one thing that is clear, is that STEL has once again brought discredit to the NTCC and this thread will remain in the absence of facts if for no other reason than that.
For the record; we do not, at this time have verifiable facts that can accurately show exactly what statement RWD made regarding a threat.
Jeff
The rest of the chapter goes like this:
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
I'm sure you knew that STEL, but you really need to realize that your barrage is not easing relations here. I've seen many fall into the trap of quoting one verse because it serves their purpose at the time. The problem becomes that they stray from the context and do not have an accurate interpretation.
-concerned minister NTCC
"concerned" don't forget about the verse that is before the one I quoted:
Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a PURE heart.
Notice the word PURE. I don't think mister t's intentions are pure here.
Seeing through exntccer lies
STEL wrote...
"My answer:
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes."
Jeff said...
That is so typical. He failed to answer even one question that was presented to him, and the questions were neither foolish or unlearned.
STEL also wrote...
"Both Jeff and CM take stabs at Pastor", "I'm only stating the facts against the backdrop of their lies."
Jeff said...
To everyone: Read all my statements under this thread and show me where I have lied? I have categorically stated that we don't have verifiable evidence concerning RWDs threat statement. Which part of that was a lie? If STEL had any decency he would apologize for making a gross misrepresentation of my character. My very statements under this thread ARE verifiable PROOF that STEL falsely accused me.
I will let the readers decide who has been consistantely more just, true, and justified concerning their responses on this very thread.
The proof people is written right on this thread and chronicled for all to read. You decide! This is a classic example of what I endured at the hands of too many NTCC pastors for years and it is because of people just like STEL that this blog was even created!!!
Jeff
Jeff wrote previously...
"For the record; we do not, at this time have verifiable facts that can accurately show exactly what statement RWD made regarding a threat."
Jeff responded to his own previous statement...
What part of that statement is a lie mister STEL?
I rest my case and I have been vindicated.
Jeff
My answer:
But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes.
Seeing through exntccer lies
Oh my goodness. Thanks for the laugh. It never change's. If folks in ntcc can not answer a question. mainly because they got NOTHING to back up there beliefs or why ntcc is so screwed up. So they use this use this as there escape. When in reality. If folks came on here and had anything to back them up. It would help there cause and ORG. But as we all know. They got nothing. Just like we had NOTHING when we were stuck in ntcc. Family would ask question and dead silence's followed. It isn't to avoid strife.
Oh and ntcc fan. I am not taking pot shots at rw. He has done it all on his own. You are very naieve and have no clue about ntcc. I believe what someone said. You have only been in ntcc. So your ALL on Board with the junk that is fed to you. We were like you. On fire to serve God. And ntcc will take you and work you and spit you out.
CM
Stel,
its apparant to me that i have been around ntcc longer than you.
do you know how many times that single verse has been quoted to me?
dozens if not hundreds times
basically what it is is a cop out so as not to think about the questions that are posed
to quote scripture out of context on a continual basis is a sign of false teaching...be true to the word
review some of the other more specific questions
t
I'm the one who started this thread, because I don't want people accusing us of wanting the ntcc leaders dead. Now STEL, you may or may not know me, but I was in ntcc for 24 years- most of those as an ordained minister, and a teacher at the bible school. My questions are neither foolish nor unlearned-- they are from firsthand experience.
As far as I know we are the only blog that is anti-ntcc now, but I may be wrong. If it comes out that T's brother was mistaken, I will glad. But I know, from years of being on the inside, that when someone leaves ntcc the leaders (yes, the leaders) spread LIES about why that person left. It is a classic cult tactic. I used to believe the leaders for years, until they started lying about me also! That was a shock.
STel,
here are a couple of the questions i was referring too:
as far as the land "gifting" goes, do you think it appropriate to take $400,000.00 worth of property from an organization and give it to an individual? it is actually illegal, have you considered looking into it?
do you live in one of the dorms? do they accept your personal check? why not?
answer me these questions as sincerely as you are able too.
t
STEL, I don't think any of us can determine whether t is speaking from a pure heart or not. What I do know is that the questions he asked about Rev. Kekel are common ones and these questions and questions like them can also be asked about many CEO's.
The answer is that many of us don't know the answers because of our perspective. We haven't been around long enough to know if he ever pioneered a church. We don't know his soul winning habits. (soul winning is not just knocking on doors on Saturday by the way) We haven't been around long enough to know wheather he has ever worked a secular job to support a work. We don't know if he has ever mowed his own lawn, my guess, probably so. We don't know if he has ever had to help his wife around the house, again, probably so. There are probably lots of people, if you were to ask the question at conference who would say Rev. Kekel brought me to church and/or was involved in soul winning and working with me until I was in.
The main answer to many of your questions, t, is I don't know. Does it matter to me? Not really. I am doing what I believe God wants me to do. What others do, they will have to answer to God for.
Casey, something was said in conference about you. Your name wasn't mentioned, but the claim was that you weren't as interested in soul winning in PR as your helper was when he got there. It was said that he didn't like how laid back you were so he went and started his own church. (I'm paraphrasing here because I don't remember exactly how it was stated)
I said this because I wasn't there in PR. I don't know if the allegations are true or not. I do know that Casey is no longer attending any kind of church, but still refers to himself as a nice guy. I'm not going to say that any of the allegations are true because I don't know the facts. At the same time I will not pat Casey on the back and tell him all is well. I don't believe he is making the right decisions in his life right now. That's just my opinion though and he has to decide what he thinks he needs to do for himself and do it. One day God will be the judge of our actions and we will see what a mess we made of our lives and only then will we realize just how much grace God really gave us.
-concerned minister NTCC
threatened?
Oh p-l-e-a-s-e!
the people attending the ntcc churches are threatened at every service that if they leave, their lives will become cesspools of sin and they will forever be condenmed to the pit of hell because they will not adhere to the ntcc standard of what a son or daughter of God is supposed to look, act, talk and live like.
Many of us heard when it was told of how so and so died a tragic death and his family got all messed up because he didn't stick around with ntcc. To me that is using threatening tactics to continue on with attending the ntcc church.
t, I don't know if STEL will answer your questions. He doesn't seem to be the question answering kind of guy. I do know the answer to a couple of your questions though if I may?
"as far as the land "gifting" goes, do you think it appropriate to take $400,000.00 worth of property from an organization and give it to an individual? it is actually illegal, have you considered looking into it?"
I don't know enough details about this allegation to give you an accurate answer. I really don't want to look into it because it seems as though there would be a lot of deep investigation that would have to go on in order to discover all of the facts surrounding it. If it is illegal, wouldn't it be real easy to take out the CEO of the organization by someone who wanted to hire an investigator and a good lawyer? I think it would be a little more difficult than that.
"do you live in one of the dorms?"
I did at one time.
"do they accept your personal
check? why not?"
No, they do not accept personal checks for the same reason as some stores don't accept personal checks. You may bounce it. Rubber costs money. That's what I was told. You may have a theory somewhere along the lines that if they were audited, it may be discovered that they were calling it a dorm fee instead of rent and somehow there would be tax troubles involved. Whatever their reasons, I do know that the dorm fee and the tuition combined for the entire time I went to seminary added up to be well under $5,000. Find another seminary you can go to where that will be the case.
-concerned minister NTCC
concerned minister,
i know your trying to come off as the more educated, wiser ntcc'er here as opposed to bluto with his inability to see anything but red
but....you reason away serious organizational character flaws as if they really don't matter and 'oh well' who really cares
its no different than Ohlson or difrancesco being the "nice" guys that everyone thinks are saints, but meanwhile they are the ones who are really doing all the covering up
in a sense they are the "accounting firms" in the 'enron' scandal
God has not called us to be "nice" that is a common misconception, although we should be as nice as possible when we need to be
but, God has called us to be Holy "seperate, set apart" from all that worldliness like deception, lying, schoozing to win someone over
you ask, "can we know if kekel did so and so?" yes we can, just ask him
have some guts and ask him these questions, ask him about the land
and you know who signed the deed on the land deal? nice rev ohlson
so maybe he could give you some valid answers
t
Concerned,
I don't want to get off subject, but let me just explain what was going on in PR when the Cespedes showed up. When they showed up we had been in PR for 3 years, and were flat broke. The church sent us a little money, but it wasn't even enough to cover the rent. My pay from work was $300/week! There was absolutely NO money left over for a church building. I explained all this in detail to Rev. Olson many times over. We could not have church or bible study in our house, because we had no furniture.
When the Cespedes' came, they had alot of their own money, and were fresh out of bible school. They ahd alot of zeal, but no wisdom (I'm not criticizing them--we've all been there). Anyway, my wife and I did everything in our power to be a blessing to them, but they rejected us-- which was a traumatic thing at the time.... I mean, we had NO fellowship with anyone for 3 years. When someone from our church finally came, they didn't want us. So they spent most of their OWN money to go start their own church. There's alot to the story I won't share now, but if you know me you know I was always a hard worker with ntcc and had some leadership ability. But trying to build an ntcc church on your own dime in a foreign land is impossible. You are probably thinking, "Where was God?" That is a good question... Where WAS God? (I'm not blaming God).
Concerned Minister said...
"No, they do not accept personal checks for the same reason as some stores don't accept personal checks. You may bounce it. Rubber costs money. That's what I was told. You may have a theory somewhere along the lines that if they were audited, it may be discovered that they were calling it a dorm fee instead of rent and somehow there would be tax troubles involved. Whatever their reasons, I do know that the dorm fee and the tuition combined for the entire time I went to seminary added up to be well under $5,000. Find another seminary you can go to where that will be the case."
Jeff said...
Once again Concerned Minister is showing himself to be a straight up guy. Lets not argue with Concerned Minister at all because he is entitled to his views and in my opinion he doesn't dodge questions.
I do want to answer his statement and I am going to do it respectfully and he shows everyone here respect and he deserves the same.
Concerned Minister: You stated that they don't accept personal checks because they are worried about their people bouncing them. That means they don't trust their people. Some stores don't accept personal checks but most do. Every company that I have ever paid bills to has accepted personal checks. Every place that I have ever paid rent to has accepted personal checks. No college that I ever attended required payment in cash and I have attended 3 different accredited colleges.
Can I say for sure why the NTCC doesn't accept personal checks for dorm fees and tuition? Of course not. Do I have a pretty idea why? Most definitely and it doesn't match the reasons they gave for a variety of reasons.
Why should students and ministers trust the NTCC leadership if the NTCC leadership doesn't trust them? They shouldn't and I don't trust the leadership at all. The NTCC leadership says that they don't even trust their pastors to not steal the escrow money and that is why they say only leadership can withdraw it and it is set up that way. What kind of message is that to convey? What they are saying is that everyone is supposed to trust them, but they are not going to trust anyone. Concerned Minister: That is not right.
Secondly: I believe that they require cash so there is no proof of receipt. With no proof of receipt every tax law in the nation can be dodged. Do I know that for sure? Of course not! Does it have the stench of tax evasion written all over that practice? You better believe it and it is definitely portraying the APPEARANCE OF EVIL which is exactly what RWD and his ministers have taught against for years.
Continued below
Jeff
Please don't anyone attack Concerned Minister. He doesn't attack any of us and he deserves the same respect.
Give Concerned Minister the same respect as he gives everyone else here. I don't draw too many lines in the sand on this blog, but I am drawing this one.
Please respect me as one of the hosts here, and please respect Concerned Minister. If anyone feels that my request is unreasonable please call me on my phone and we will discuss it in a gentlemanly fashion. 404-405-7842.
I could care less if the man is in the NTCC. He "SEEMS" to be a sincere Minister of the Gospel and I am respectfully requesting that we respect him as such. Everyone here should have some respect for Jesus Christ so please respect one of Jesus's ministers. That is my judgment and I am sticking to it.
Basically he is getting a get out of jail free card on this blog. Everyone should feel free to counter his statements but he shouldn't get attacked because he has attacked none of us.
Jeff Collins
Continuation of Jeffs post, two post up.
Why not take a check? So what if it bounces. The NTCC can require the person who bounced the check to pay any fees or they suspend them from school or kick them out of the dorms. It would sure let you know what future ministers are responsible and which ones are irresponsible. Nothing I've said here is inaccurate and I am convinced that it is a very fishy practice to ONLY allow payment in cash and I am personally convinced that the NTCC leadership has an ulterior motive. IF they don't they are exercising very poor judgment with this requirement because it has the appearance of evil written all over it. When someone acts, looks, and talks like a house thief they are usually a horse thief.
Now the $5000 dollar for tuition part. You are right. You can't find another seminary who will have tuition that is that inexpensive. You can't find it. You also aren't going to find many other who are NON-ACCREDITED. You also won't find probably ANY other seminary who writes the below mentioned disclaimer at the bottom of their transcript if you even receive one. I typed this disclaimer word for word directly off of an official NTCS transcript. Respectfully Concerned Minister; that disclaimer clearly means that the schooling isn't even worth one dollar to anyone who would ever even dream of leaving the NTCC.
"OFFICIAL NTCS DISCLAIMER TYPED AT THE BOTTOM OF AN OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT SIGNED BY MIKE KEKEL"
"Due to our intent to train disciples strictly for the church ministry within our churches, we do not offer nor purport to offer any training which could be construed in any way by a participant therein as preparatory for any occupation, secular of otherwise, or for any advancement within another institution, religious or otherwise, outside of the New Testament Christian Churches of America, Inc. Neither does this Institution offer nor purport to offer a degree or any other credentials qualifying participants for any position or occupation outside of our churches."
All that I ask Concerned Minister is to consider my views and make sure that you are not leading good sheep to what many consider the proverbial NTCC slaughter.
You SEEM to be a very genuine man and you have given me every reason to have a tremendous degree of respect for you. Please consider.
Sincerely and respectfully,
Jeff
Concerned,
I attended a seminary that was well below 5,000. They accepted cash, checks, money orders, and you received a receipt. The classes you took at the school were good and very in depth. You even received some solid credits you could transfer. You could even transfer your license to another Pentecostal org.(after proven). The org is Church of God.
Thank you for your kind words Jeff. It does seem strange the way they handle the payment for the dorm fee when you consider the tax part of it. I guess I have a little more faith in the fact they are recording all of the income they receive. Again, this is another thing I do not know. I have never been in the room when they were doing the book keeping to see how it is done. It would help matters if they were a little more transparent concerning these things. There is a certain amount of secrecy that tends to make people wonder. Having said all that, I still believe they are doing the right thing. I don't have any proof and haven't seen any proof to persuade me to the contrary.
-concerned minister NTCC
concerned,
for the record, i was not in anyway trying to attack you, sorry if it came off that way
t
t: someone jump all over Concerned Minister and I didn't think it was you. I just didn't think old Concerned deserved what someone wrote to him. You may not have seen it. Once again, I didn't think it was you t.
Jeff
Concerned Minister:
Don't you think it's wrong to expect ministers to categorically trust their leadership where financial matters are concerned, but the leadership shows that they don't trust their ministers where financial matters are concerned?
You said they were worried about folks bouncing checks and that is a display of mistrust. I know it is not unreasonable to understand someone may very well bounce a check, and that is exactly why no one should just blindly trust RWD, Kekel, or Olson. They don't trust their ministers and I don't trust them. I do know leadership has it set up where the pastors have NO control of the money that they put in the escrow accounts. As I thought about it, I've actually heard that from FOUR NTCC pastors. The NTCC leadership says they need control of the money in case a pastors leaves and takes the money.
What checks and balances are in place to prevent the leadership form taking the money? There are none.
Concerned Minister: I know these things FOR SURE. There is no way that many people are telling the exact same lie. It would be too coincidental for them all to just circumstantially say the exact same thing. One of the pastors who told me that is still a current NTCC pastor so why would he lie when he hasn't even left the NTCC? We talked with each other on the phone since I left the NTCC. He would have no reason to lie to me.
Just consider what I am saying Concerned Minister because I am not telling lies and if I say something is a fact than it is a fact. The NTCC leadership zeros out escrow accounts and does not always restore the money. It is a whole lot worse than them just needing to be more transparent. Many of their practices are just flat out corrupt.
I don't just make this stuff up. I'm not saying that I don't ever speculate but when I do, I do my best to make it known.
I have sources and just because I don't serve up their names does not mean that I don't have them. The people who have told me these things are credible witnesses. I do plenty of research on these matters and I type my phone number on these blogs for a reason. Because I do get phone calls and sometimes the calls come from CURRENT NTCC folks. You can choose not to believe me but you are making a mistake if that is your choice.
Jeff.
Jeff,
Can I just be thoroughly childish for minute here and say I enjoyed your rational, point by point "smackdown" of STEL?
And has anyone heard whether or not Jackie and Dave or Teoceo (all originating from Junction City/Ft. Riley) are still in NTCC?
Queshia ~
Jackie and Dave got out of the org last year...I believe it was in October. I am still trying to find them.
For over 4 years I repeatedly asked Sandra, Naomi, Heather P., and a few others to give Jackie my home address or to get her home address for me so I can write to her. For awhile all I got was 'oops, I forgot', then the few times I did ask again (when they would see each other at conferences), I never heard a word.
That really bothered me, especially coming from my 'sisters in Christ'. All I wanted was info as to where to locate the Stephens. Sandra had it. She knew darn well how to contact them because she did it.
I think maybe because I wasn't 'in' anymore they didn't want to pass that info along to me.
That's fine. They are out and now I hope that they get online soon so I can find them. :)
I always could e-mail Rev. Kekel and find out what was the last church they Pastored...
Teoceo the last time I heard which was a few years ago was that he was in Bible college. Don't know if he graduated or left.
When did the Raymores get out? Do you keep in touch with Davida often?
Jeff,
I have a little more trust in NTCC record keeping than some people because there was a time when there was a question about whether I paid something and they checked the books and there it was. Their records matched my records. My trust is based on experience. I don't have to have a check stub to show I paid something because I have a budget where things are written down when I pay them.
As for people bouncing checks, I remember specifically a chinese restaurant that took checks until several young "military personel," (for all those who don't like the phrase G. I. which is used by media and many others who refer to these fine people who risk their lives for our nation), bounced their checks in their establishment. They taped a bounced check to the wall and placed a sign over it saying "we don't take your checks and this is why."
I don't know if youthfull inexperience has anything to do with their "mistrust" of Bible Seminary students, but that is one possibility. I don't know everything about this organization and how or why all of the rules came into existence. I am fairly new to the organization considering the amount of time I have been in. I get what you say about the way it looks from your perspective. Many of the practices of the leadership lend themselves to misunderstandings and doubt as to their legitimacy. I would still have to see the corruption, not just the perceived result of alleged corruption in order for me to believe it is taking place.
There are real reasons for my trust, among them being the fact that there is a real presence of God felt and seen in the lives of many who serve the Lord in NTCC. The reason I say many is that it is not so with all. There will always be those who do not walk uprightly before our Lord and seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness. There are many things we must do as Christians to keep the fire burning in our lives and there are always going to be people who let the fire go out. Having said that, I see God in the lives of our leadership and in the lives of many of the ministers. There will be those who scoff me and say I am wrong, I know, but you can't deny me my experiences.I don't fully understand all the secrecy, but I believe that before God, they are really trying to do what is right.
-concerned minister NTCC
t, you said:
have some guts and ask him these questions, ask him about the land
I just don't believe that will accomplish what you are after. If you really believe I could just ask him and I would then know the answers, then you could do the same. You have his phone number and his e-mail address. Anyone can ask Rev. Kekel the same questions I can ask him. It is not a matter of asking him a question. If he is really trying to cover things up as you say, he will not answer truthfully. If he tells the truth in answer to the hypothetical question, what then? Will you believe him? I submit that an investigation propegated by you, the exers, through a third party, in order to gain full disclosure of all these things should be the route taken. Instead of supposition based on very little evidence, investigate and gather all evidence possible in order to fully understand the inner workings of NTCC. If the land issue is such a big deal. you could start with that. That one thing could be enough to severely cripple the organization if it is as you say it is.
Don't take my word for it though, ask an attourney or do some research on your own to see what it will take to gain full disclosure concerning these things. If I thought that my asking Rev. Kekel questions about these things would end all doubt surrounding them, I would have done so long ago. Besides, he has already spoken concerning them, though it didn't satisfy the questions in the minds of many on this blog who only came back with tons more questions.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned minister,
I also thought they were upright and Godly men. Until the fog was lifted and my eyes have been opened to the truth. If there such Godly men. Why do they live in there fancy home's,drive there expensive cars. While so many of there minister's live pay check to pay check,off of food banks and kindness of what they would consider sinners. Sorry,but helping out one minister. But ignoring so many that do need help. But can't. Because rw pushes that they have to be a leader. God will bless! Rw had a huge house. But he had to have a even bigger house,higher gate. Why? Does he live in fear.
If he did just share a lie with the conregation. About a death threat on his life. He is so paranoid he is making up lie's.
As far as the rule's. As rw davis why they have the rules. Or are you afraid you will be shown the door. rw was ridiculed for going to a professional baseball game(YEARS AGO) so no baseball game's.Though there is family sections where there is no drinking allowed. Bowling,and rollerskating they play worldly music. SO DO MALLS AND AIRPORTS!
Oh my you can't play UNO you might want to gamble. AS IF!
He has made Christianity legalism. he controls your life. Try and do something you know rw would dissaprove of. But God has not convicted you about! Your walk with God is just that,between you and God.
No Church has that much control over your life. They are there to guide and help. Not control you. A Shepherd does not have total control over his sheep!!
CM
dont worry CM those legalistic rules are about to change.
Kekel is a lot smarter than rw was and he knows that if you slack the rules you will keep more people around and thus.....BIGGER PAYCHECK!!!!
you have to give the guy credit from a worldly perspective...he knows how to play the game
evrything he has done has been shrewdly calculated with the end result of BIGGER PAYCHECK!!!
and if you think rw's life is veiled in secrecy, try sending Mike a couple e-mails and see what you get!!
the difference between rw and mike in my eyes is this
rw is basically just a bully who beat people down in order to get what he wanted
mike is a professional politician slash manipulator who do anything to increase the family budget
similar to Obama in that NOBODY knows how he came up with all his money!!!! isnt that amazing, he is a public servant and nobody knows where his money came from (islamic radicals?, leftist conspirators?..who knows?)
similar also to MA governor Patrick, same situation, a public servant who is a multi millionaire but nobody knows where it came from
they must be "smart investors"
i have specifically asked Mike where his money came from and he refuses to answer any questions
its funny, police officers, firemen etc... all have their salaries and overtime recorded for the whole world to see
but mike.....
lets just say, "he knows what he's doing"
follow him people maybe he will make you all rich....after he makes you all poor
t
concerned minister,
in reply to your statement about feeling the Lord in NTCC,
I hope you are understanding that you don't feel the Lord in NTCC because that is the only place He will bless,
But you feel His presence because you are a christian and when you hear the Word of God preached, it is spiritual.
Just hoping you dont believe only in NTCC can you feel God and be a christian.
Christianity is of the heart and in ones relationship with God. Not in a particular church.
real christian forever
Concerned Minister,
I appreciate your viewpoint. It is not so much that MK received many acres from the org, it is that he receives such a gift while Pastors in his org are living hand to mouth. It is almost criminal! How could you gaze out your window at 39acres knowing that your church members(and widows) are going without?
A church's "calling card" is how its missionaries are treated, ministers, and congregation.
Anon!
real Christian,
I agree that NTCC is not the only place God is. My statements were concerning where my faith in the leadership and the organization of NTCC stands. I recently saw a youtube video (I know, gasp! you were watching videos online?) where there were some people who were worshipping and it looked like they were really having a good time in the Lord. I don't pretend to know whether they were genuine or not, but I would have liked to get in on that church service. When God moves, it doesn't matter what name is over the door, who really cares? God is moving!
-concerned minister NTCC
Dawn,
I know how you feel about not being given information because you weren't "in".
Same here situation here Dawn! I didn't "leave" NTCC as in get mad and go off. I chose to what I felt God wanted me to do for my marriage and family and tried to live in subjection to my husband. This is a higher calling Yet from some members I get get the cold shoulder.
The Bible says a man who doesn't provide for his family is worse than an infidel. Probably the same for a woman who doesn't nurture her family.
I wonder a lot about Jackie and Dave. Dave was my husband's soul winning partner for a long time. I remember seeing their Bible college graduation picture...Dave looked happy, but Jackie...did not look like herself.
I wish I knew Davida's number and addy.. she was a nice gal too!
Hey does Joe and Gerri still come out(older black and white couple).
How about Paul M.
Nellashara
how about this for a topic Jeff:
i hear that when a man leaves ntcc to find another church home the ntcc leaders do not counsel the wife to follow his lead and go to church with him
Is not the Bible the end all for us as christians, doesn't the Bible tell wives to submit to their husbands in all things? (obviously not things that are wrong)
shouldnt ntcc be advising these wives to submit to their husbands god given authority?
The same circumstance arose with a widowed woman in my church who re-married, she was a very prominent and well known woman and very involved. my pastors counseled her to follow her knew husbands lead and attend the church he desired, as low as it was within the realm of orthodoxy
what do you guys think?
ps- i know this is the case because of my "informant"
t
"Whatever their reasons, I do know that the dorm fee and the tuition combined for the entire time I went to seminary added up to be well under $5,000. Find another seminary you can go to where that will be the case."
You usually get what you pay for, but in the case of this "seminary," I'm afraid you get far less. They brag about how cheap it is, but neglect to mention that your money gets you basically nothing but false teaching and a worthless piece of paper (that is, if they even award diplomas anymore).
You're just the type they love--good hearted, sincere, refusing to entertain questions or doubts about what is clearly unfolding before you. I was like that too, for many years. You may also wake up one day.
Concerned minister,
heard this said while in ntcc and now your saying it. God is Moving? What do you think it means,God is moving? To me,it sounds like ntcc jargon. With no real meaning behind it.
You have to be in ntcc,God is moving. Your on Gods winning team....
CM
CM,
I'm sorry if you haven't ever felt the Spirit of God or knew what they were talking about when they said God is moving. What do you think the Bible means in I. Kings 8:10 and 11? The presence of the Lord is real. God hasn't changed and the Holy Spirit is apt to move upon the congregation under this dispensation more than under the law. CM, I am not attacking you, I already know you have spiritual problems that are coming out in many of your posts. Consider the possibility that when others speak of the moving of God, there is something to it and that you may also be able to experience it. If you will consider these things and allow God to help you, He may also show Himself real to you.
-concerned minister NTCC
NS ~
I remember Joe and Gerri! When I left JC in 2004, they were still coming out. I think they only came out on Sunday's though, but they were very faithful in that.
I am not sure about Paul. I was there when something happened. I don't remember what it was now. All I remember is that he stopped coming for awhile.
Then he came back, eventually repented of what he did and got back in the game so to speak.
He used to be the drum player, but after that incident I don't remember him playing again.
I really forgot what all went on. Maybe Bro. Johnson can remember. Or even Queshia might know.
Dawn,
Wow Joe and Gerri are still coming out...that's so cool! They had been coming out since the Taylors I believe!
Paul M. was a good brother, last time I saw him he was trying to get back in the military.
Ooh uh...we are turning into a Junction City thread again lol
Dawn I am south of your locale in a couple of hours outside of H-town, when I travel to the big "D" maybe we can hang at a spot and "water our horses". LOL
NS
A meet up would be wonderful! I am assuming H town is Houston? I've only been in Texas a year so forgive my ignornace :-)
My home is always open to ya!
I have a question for ya? Are you on Facebook? I was looking under Kuma's friends and noticed someone named Nella is her friend and I thought 'hmmm I wonder if this is the same Nella that's on the blog'.
aww just tell him defamation of character is against the law so he better bring proof to the table or he can be sued royally and I would be more then happy to sit in a court room for that one!
Dawn,
Its a small wolrd isn't it ;)
NS
NS..when were you last at NTCC in Junction City..I might know you : ) We left in 2006
Heather M
t wrote...
"RW is basically just a bully who beats people down in order to get what he wanted
Mike is a professional politician slash manipulator, who will do anything to increase the family budget"
Jeff said...
That is exactly right. t and I think too much alike. I know we have our differences but I can totally relate with his statement. AMEN to that statement t.
Jeff
amen bro!!
t
Heather,
I was in JC in 2001 and did some TDY in 2002.
You probably seen me pass through.
I've sinced ETS'd, divorced, and moved.
NS
t said...
how about this for a topic Jeff:
Jeff replied...
Sounds great to me. It's a good topic. T: would you like to write the heading and place it on the front page? All I need is your email address and I can email you the information you need to get access to post on the cover of the blog. If you would like give me a call at 404-405-7842. If you would like you can call anytime up to 11PM eastern time.
I would be glad to post it also if you would like because it is a good idea for a topic.
However you want to work it t.
Jeff
Dawn,
I still talk to Davida often, she is my BFF! lol They left after Aberdeen. The atmosphere there was more loving and relaxed, so when they arrived in Cali and things were wacky, they left for good.
I knew Teo had gotten married, but nothing else after that. Things went mum about him, so he may have left.
Paul M. is out. There were some issues, which are vague in my mind so I won't repeat them.
Jeff,
i appreciate the oppurtunity and the trust you put in my judgement, but as you know i do have family in ntcc and would rather not become 'overly' involved (lol, yeah right) as far as moderating topics and such. the reason being that i dont want my to have more reason to become bitter or more engrained in ntcc.
as of now, i talk to my family regularly and we both share how we feel openly, but i dont want them to think im becoming overly bold
thanks,
t
I will create the thread t. I totally understand. Thanks for the idea because it is good information and I certainly know enough to start a thread with it.
Jeff
Jeff,
Maybe they took Blaine's post as a death threat?
NS
Blaine represents none of us nor do we represent Blaine. RWD knows that and apparently some NTCC folks threw Blaine out of the church in Graham because he was wielding a sword or something like that. That is what I heard.
In that respect I don't blame the NTCC folks for throwing Blaine out if Blaine actually came in their church with a sword. NTCC folks have been a whole lot of bad things but violent isn't one of them. You can't just allow some dude to come in your church wielding a sword if that's what happened? If someone came in my house wielding a sword I would shoot them. If that is what happened, Blaine is lucky all he got was thrown out.
FOR THE RECORD, Blaine does not represent this blog or the folks who post on it, and he certainly does not represent me. He represents himself and that is it. He claims to represent God, and that is between he and God. I don't know for sure, but I certainly have my doubts. I think I deleted all Blaine's posts. If there are anymore please let me know.
The NTCC leadership knows good and well that Blaine has issues. It is a deceitfully poor ploy by RWD and his people, to suggest the presents of death threats "if" Blaine is who they are referring to. If Blaine is not who they are referring to, it is still deceitful, because there have been no death threats by anyone who represents me or this blog.
Jeff
I found Blaine's post on a different forum, and he wrote nothing that could have been interpreted as a death threat.
Blaine wrote this:
"$5,000 REWARD {$1000 EACH}
payable to the individual who causes THE PROSECUTION, AND RESIGNATION OF THE FOLLOWING LEADERS OF NTCC OF AMERICA, INC.
Rev. R.W. Davis
Rev. M.C. Kekel
Rev. J.H. Olson
Rev. J.L. Johnson
Rev. P.A. Kinson"
Jeff said...
He also signed the message, "messenger of satan"
Jeff said...
Blaine's messages are absurd, and I Jeff Collins do not advocate, support or concur with Blaine's messages. With that being said, the nonsense that Blaine wrote is still by no means a death threat.
Thanks for bringing that to my attention NS. I appreciate it. Let me know if any of Blaine's stuff is on this blog? I believe I deleted every last bit of it off of here.
Jeff
"The one thing I would say is that this is the only active NOT NTCC blog that I know of, so it stands to reason that this blog would have been the one referenced."
Blaine has a blog too; maybe he was referring to that one.
"Blaine has a blog too; maybe he was referring to that one."
His blog has the clarity of an LSD trip!
Your blog was not referenced; the cuckoo guy made MORE than one threat, and he has since changed his words....
Whatever Blaine's issues are, he is right on target with his assessment of RW and the NTCC leadership gang. He may not enjoy much credibility, but if someone like him can see through the smoke and mirrors, it doesn't leave much of an excuse for those who are considered more "normal."
"His blog has the clarity of an LSD trip!"
Are you familiar with the clarity of LSD trips? If so, I doubt you would dismiss them so blithely. These experiences have been known to impart highly accurate insights previously hidden from the conscious mind.
I wouldn't necessarily recommend it, though, especially to those in NTCC. RW on acid is a frightening thought.
"RW on acid is a frightening thought".
Well, actually, many recording artists like Jimi Hendrick's best works came while under the influence of something.
RW on acid? You may actually hear a message of salvation!!!
..or maybe financial disclosure
The claim has been made that this is the only active exntcc blog. There is one up and coming! Watch here and you will see!!!
http://deadringerstinger.blogspot.com/
If you delete this post, I will just post it again. You can't avoid the truth!
Post a Comment