One of the Junction City folks who left the NTCC wrote this:
"After struggling off and on for 3 years with the manipulative mind games I LEFT!! I always knew deep down something wasn't right. To this day I can't explain in words the emotional destruction NTCC caused me as a new christian. I'm glad to be OUT!!!"
SFC Johnson was also with the NTCC in Junction City Kansas. He has posted extensively on this blog and he's told countless stories of all the bad experiences that he endured while with the NTCC, so consequently he left the NTCC also. Another person has also posted some alarming info about the Junction City NTCC on this blog.
It sounds like Junction City has been the breading place of some seriously abusive NTCC pastors but what's new? So is just about every other city who's soil an NTCC pastor has placed his feet on. NTCC pastors are taught to be abusive and that is not only true but it is the only logical explanation that would explain why as many people complain about the existence so many unruly NTCC ministers.
If you have specific stories about life in the Junction City NTCC feel free to post them. Obviously everyone can feel at liberty to reply or chime in as they see fit.
Jeff
207 comments:
1 – 200 of 207 Newer› Newest»I am sorry, I didn't think Rev. Devonshire, Rev. Bellamy, or Rev. Gandy were abusive at all. Rev. Gandy had some power / control issues he needed to deal with, but I personally feel that none of those Pastors that I was under were abusive (mentally / emotionally or psychologically).
Others may have a differing opinion though.
That's my $0.02
~Dawn
Hmm lets see..
The Taylors were awesome Me and Mr. T bumped heads once,
Ankenbauers a good couple tough, The Boles...uhhh..(ahem) Reeds tough sometimes a bully, fair most of the time, bumped heads at times... Sister Reed the perfect example of a Christian Woman.
Devonshire, met him briefly...seemed pretty cool... Wife was awesome!
The sisters, a blessing...but clique-y sometimes. The brothers...some were cool some were pew-pastory.
NS
Dawn,
I appreciate your insight.
On the brother's side of the house, things were perceived differently.
Devonshire: Control freak. He get's bent out of shape because I do not follow his pattern of success and soul win on base. I go to Manhatten and soul win at the local mall. Somehow this gets under his skin. He wanted me to focus on the base because I was a GI. Not wanting to upset his good graces, I refrained.
Then he wants me in charch of a single Servicemen's home brothers. He wants me to led the brothers in everything (Hello I have a wife, am married, live on post, and have other things to do). He wants me to spend extra time at the Servicemen's home. to wake up the brothers. To get them in line for soul winning. So, I have to leave my house earlier than everyone, go drive over to the Home, wake the SINGLE brothers up to go to a prayer meeting. Something is not right here!!! Why not empower a brother living in the home to do this???? He took advantage of me and my Go Getter attitude, it can plainly be seen. Then the brothers rebelled and did not want to listen to me and played mind games. I cut that extra duty out real quick!!
He did not know how to properly displace responsiblity, no wonder his wife was fed up with him!!
Gandy was bling bling wanting to drive in all the brother's NEW vehicles. I never allowed him to drive in mine. I can tell he had more than souls in his mind. More like Dollar signs. He was manipilative and liked to play mind games and guilt trip folks.
Bellamy could not preach, period. I am sorry, he tried. He was not ready to be a preacher, only an assistant. His wife could not sing. Remember when he would tell jokes about me to everyone saying I was clapping to fast? No, his wife was playing too slow and the chords she played were off. Her singing was off too, which threw the drummer off.
Funny how these preachers are not in Junction City NTCC Church now.
I am not saying they were BAD Preachers, but it is a combination of bad leadership which drove a lot of folks away, including our family.
Where are the Menendez family now? The Brother had an affair and Sis Menendez left him along with her little girl.
The only lady who really cared about souls who is still there is Sister Heather. John is on edge, he even told me when he was in Iraq he was not even saved.
All families had issues and the spiritual needs were not being met by the church.
It was a buisness, plain and simple.
Bro Johnson
I was never under the Devonshire's, they came to my door once looking for my hubby, (he had already deployed though)..they seemed extremely nice!
The Gandy's were there, when I started attending. As I posted earlier..I DEARLY loved, and admired them both!! I had the utmost respect for them both!! When they left, is when I realized I wasn't serving God, but MAN! Sis Gandy told me before she left 'You serve God, not us'. It's the power/control issues they are taught in B.S. that I believe 'some' ministers know has an impact on the members. Even after they left, I stuck it out..for awhile. I couldn't do it any longer. I think about the Gandy's a lot sis Dawn, but NTCC wasn't for me or my family!
I know the ministers teach what they are taught! Like Bro Johnson mentioned in another post awhile back..if it hadn't been for him getting married..he would of been sent off to B.S., and basically taught the same thing (i think I have your wording right bro johnson?)!
NTCC members are under strict rules by the ministers, the ministers are under strict rules by the leadership!! Power/Control issues fall under the same thing as abuse!!
Dawn said...
"Rev. Gandy had some power / control issues he needed to deal with"
Jeff said...
I also had about four NTCC pastors who had as you put it had "power and control issues." Generally abusive people have power and control issues and that is what makes them abusive. The time to deal with those issues is before you become a pastor not after.
Most folks don't particularly care for control freaks and people who are power hungry. I do know that ladies in that church were strongly compelled and manipulated to go soul winning even when it created problems with their pregnancy.
I do appreciate your $0.02 though because that is what this blog is all about. You certainly wouldn't be able to post your two cents on Mike Kekels blog because he moderates everything that goes on it and selectively chooses what he want's posted. Let see how other folks weigh in on this topic.
Jeff
What drove my wife from NTCC Junction City, KS?
30% the Preacher. 70% the Sisters.
I have already explained why in previous threads. They could have really presented a positive influence to my wife.
It was all negative, sorry Dawn. The baby shower for my wife? The so called sisters give her USED items. Junk. Menendez gives her baby shoes that were dirty and already worn. I threw all that junk away.
The only thing that was new was the cake Sister Heather made for her. Sister Heather cared, that was about it.
So, if I recieve junk from somebody, they are effectivly telling me that my self worth is trash, which I do not appreciate nor deserve.
Clickish? Yes. Most absolutely, led by Naomi who was just too busy to come visit my wife, or would stop by without calling first. And Jackie and the rest of them.
Bro Johnson
"I know the ministers teach what they are taught! Like Bro Johnson mentioned in another post awhile back..if it hadn't been for him getting married..he would of been sent off to B.S., and basically taught the same thing (i think I have your wording right bro johnson?)!"
Sounds good enough, sister. God sent Young-mi my way to get me out of NTCC, plain and simple. I can see it clearly now.
NTCC is a cult. The naysayers on post were right.
Bro Johnson
Bro J wrote:
Remember when he would tell jokes about me to everyone saying I was clapping to fast? No, his wife was playing too slow and the chords she played were off. Her singing was off too, which threw the drummer off.
I soo remember this Bro Johnson, you would have to start over, and over and he would makes jokes about it!! I agree with u though on the reasoning lol!!
Well, others weighed in before I could even post my message because Dawns message was the only one there when I started typing. When I finished there were about four more.
Jeff.
Bro Johnson said...
Then he wanted me in charge of the single brothers Serviceman's home.
Jeff said...
I slightly reworded you statement because I understood your point.
Now about what you wrote. NTCC ministers are notorious for delegating their duties. That pastor was the one who should have been taking care of the brothers. Based upon what you wrote, all he did was create chaos because he made a decision that resulted in the brothers resenting you. Simply put he wanted you to do his JOB. Was he giving you any of the tithe money? That was rhetorical. There was a definite leadership problem with that guy but that is a whole different topic. Nevertheless typical with NTCC pastors.
But the bigger problem was that he could care less that you had a wife. His sorry church building agenda was more important to him than you taking care of your family which is also typical in the NTCC.
Jeff
When did the Reeds leave Junction City?
I know I have heard many good things about them.
Had I actually gone out to church when I was invited out, I may had been able to meet them. (Got invited out in 2000, began attending in 2001).
Funny, I got a brand new car in 2003, and Rev. Gandy never wanted to test drive my car. :-( I think I even offered him the keys once. Oh well. :-) Maybe it's cuz I am girl...and girls have cooties...hee hee. :-)
Rick Mendez is remarried to some woman and has a whole new family. I think they are in Texas.
Desiree married David Tieman and they have been together for several years now. They had a baby girl. They are at the church in St. Louis, where David's dad is the preacher.
I like Dave...he's a real nice guy.
Are you sure your facts are straight Bro. Johnson...I thought Bro. Price got saved in Korea. In fact, according to Sis Price, he got saved before her...
Now who is lying and who is telling the truth?
Bro. Johnson...socialization is a 2way street.
You keep saying it's the sisters fault for one of the reasons your wife left...well, did your wife make the attempt to talk and be social with the sisters as well?
You can't just blame it all on everyone else.
Personal responsibility has to be taken.
I used to remember your wife coming in the church and sitting down.
I used to do that too. Then I came out of my shell and out of my comfort zone and began to introduce myself to others and interact with them.
Rev. Gandy use to tell me I had an inferiority complex..he actually helped me past that believe it or not (thank you Sir, if you are reading this).
We have to own up to our own actions sometimes.
Got to get dinner started.
God Bless!
Dawn,
I think we had a somewhat similar experience..except mine under Rev Boles.
He was abusive. He told us we were a dry church, because we didn't clap and yell at every word he said. We were "punished" with soul-winning and revivals because we didn't bring enough people to church. Who then were run off. Your contacts looked a you as being a friend and couldn't understand why you would bring them to a service to be verbally assaulted. Bro Jeff...that was the worst feeling in the world.I still feel some guilt over it.
He called one sister a whore in service in front of her husband because she disagreed with the standards.
He told us who to talk to and when...(not that we listened)
If your spouse left the church, you were to treat them in such a manner that would cause them to divorce you. Dude I really thought he was looking on the back of a cereal box and making this up!
We had multiple meetings with him...still didn't change. Then finally he said "Folks this is what I was taught.." I saw the look on his face. He was sincere, frustrated...something clicked I began to feel sorry for him. He was truly repentant...yet he could not understand what he did wrong.
It was a very painful time in my life.
NS
Dawn,
The Reeds left sometime in late 2001 early 2002.
I came out in July 2001...the Reeds were already gone and the Devonshires were there.
"Are you sure your facts are straight Bro. Johnson...I thought Bro. Price got saved in Korea. In fact, according to Sis Price, he got saved before her...
Now who is lying and who is telling the truth?"
Sister Dawn,
I thank you for the lovely counterpoint.
John plainly told me, again, when he was in Iraq, he was not saved. out of respect to the brother if he ever reads this blog, I'll refrain from specifics, but that is what he told me.
I met John in Korea, and have the utmost respect for him. I still do, although we are not as close as we once were due to deployments, time spent away, etc. He and Heather attended out wedding. I have known him and heather for awhile.
Ready for another shocker? I personally saw Sister Heather get invited out to church by Brother Duenas. I saw the complete transformation. She had the goods, God did a work in her life, and she will always hold a special place in our hearts as a true, dear friend. Her and John.
I believe John was saved prior to me meeting him. Hanna knew him from the Servicemen's home at Fort Hood.
It is possible to fall out of the grace of God and sin again, maybe that is what John was alluding to, but the man spoke plainly to me. I am not going to judge him.
Ahh okay..I had already PCS'd so I wasn't sure.
Bro Johnson I am not defending cliques...but women (even christian women) are guilty of such.
Noami and I were good friends and soul winned together alot. I could talk to her about anything in the world. If i got out of "line" so to speak...she didn't hit me with the heavy hand of judgement...she would roll her eyes nudge me and give me an "Aw Sister!" Yes I preferred hanging around her...because I could be my Christian self. She was awesome!
However, there was this one Sister I hated soul-winning with. Lets call her Sister Blueberry for the sake of argument. She was....well annoying. She was nosy and always asking me why I didn't believe God for such and such. Super-spiritual She had her steering wheel as a pulpit and a altar in her glove compartment.
No I didn't want to hang with her or go to her house....she was annoying lol!
Bro J....what does your wife say? If she would have known me I would have made her feel welcome without being fake.
NS
Bro J said...
What drove my wife from NTCC Junction City, KS? 30% the Preacher. 70% the Sisters.
Jeff said...
My wife has similar sentiments Bro J. There were some real good woman in the NTCC and some of them are posting right on this blog. But there were some who always wanted to stir up a mess. It looks like there may have been one started toward the end of the previous thread. J: Give me a call when you get a chance. I tried to call you quite a few times but I was unable to reach you my friend. I did get your message on my voice mail. Talk to you later buddy.
Jeff
Bro J,
It is so amazing to "see" you here since I have thought of you and Young Mi quite a bit since we left the church.
She was also such a sweet person and earnest in her desire to be friendly. When my husband and I first came to NTCC I remember her speaking to me and being warm.
You two even had us over for dinner after your son was born. She told be of her discomfort of soulwinning in English.
When you stopped coming and after she had given birth to your daughter I called to inquire about her. You told be she was doing well. I wanted so badly to say, "I understand Bro. Johnson, and am trying to make the transition, too!" But I was afraid and didn't.
It was so hard to leave. And I still felt guilt and doubt for a long time. Seeing someone like you, who I knew was earnest and enthusiatic, confirms what I already knew in my heart of hearts.
NTCC is not God. It is a church. That is all. They are not the way, truth, or light.
Dawn,
I have always known you to have been a sincere person. However, please realize it is possible for two people to have been at the same place and experience very different things.
Its like being in a home with an abusive parent, but you are not the focus of assualt. Your sibling is. Some people were considered "worth the effort" so to speak, and were manhandled more than others.
For instance, there was another brother, like Bro. J who was consistantly disrespected, but not given recognition for their hard work. He too had a family, of four children to be exact. He was no only discouraged from seeking promotions that would have helped his struggling family. But he was publicly and privately derided as not a "man" for not providing more.
Gandy never "went there" with me. And it may have been because at that point, with all the pastor transfers, I had started asking questions. I do remember one time when I took off my wedding ring, following Devonshire's example, and he told be to look at his wife's big and beautiful ring. And that she better wear it. Although it was not the least bit modest in the NTCC use of the word.
There was also the time when all the sisters were really down and feeling "jacked up" for not doing enough even though ALL our husbands were deployed and we ate. slept, and dreamt church. Rev. Bellamy preached a service on liberty and gave us all hand outs. Well after that service I called and asked him, "Really, we are free and Christ love actually makes us safe and saved. Not the number of people we call, or the amount we give?" Seriously, I asked that. And bless him, because I know he was sincere, but he quickly backtracked and said, "Oh no, I mean there are still obligations to be meant, if your really LOVE the Lord." And back into bondage we went.
All I am saying is that all NTCCers are not monsters, but the method and words used did alot of damage to people and their children and marriages.
And in the end all many people have to show for it is disgruntled teens, a cold marriage, no salary to speak of, and a disillusioned "walk" with Christ.
And I can't help but to beleive that the Leaders know the psycological damage they are doing to people. People who are just looking for love and leadership.
LaQueshia Jefferies said...
NTCC is not God. It is a church. That is all. They are not the way, truth, or light.
Jeff Collins said...
LaQueshia: Your post should be a true eye opener to anyone who reads this blog. Your story sounds similar to Angie's story, who is another lady who posts on this blog. You know you taught me something when you wrote your message. As hard as it is for me to see sometimes, I guess not everyone's experiences are the same and I'm glad you said that. If Dawn for example didn't experience a lot of bad stuff, I shouldn't expect her to see or say something that she simply didn't see.
Dawn I also hope that you believe we are not wrong, when so many of us have testified to the same types of abuse dished out by so many different NTCC pastors.
Anyway it is great to have you on this blog LaQueshia and your testimony and input will always be welcome. You have very rapidly distinguished yourself as the voice of reason around here. If you see me getting out of hand don't hesitate to straighten me out and I am being sincere.
Dawn: despite the fact that you and I don't always agree, I can appreciate your input and the fact that you stand by your convictions whether it is popular around this blog or not. Continue to state what you believe because a one sided blog is not good for anyone and you are just as entitled to your opinion as the rest of us. If your experiences were decent at Junction City then I am glad for you because it appears that you made out better than some of your counterparts. Take it easy Dawn.
Later ya-all because I am going to hit the sack.
Jeff
Jeff,
I don't know you but I like your openmindedness and fairness. I attempted to post the following to the NTCC CEO's blog. I don't see anything in my two cents that would cause it not to be posted. If it dosen't get posted, that will only back up what I wrote.
This is what I wrote to Mr. Kekel's blog:
"With all due respect, this blog seems to be all one-sided and not allowing for complete objectivity. Jeff Collins' blog on the other hand is more objective (although there is some unnecessary bitterness & disdain from some of the bloggers). The reason why I have made this assessment is because Mr. Collins allows both exNTCCrs and NTCCrs to post as long as their comments are respectful to the Christian atmosphere. Not only can I relate to some of Mr. Collins NTCC experiences but I have more respect for his blog because he leaves the door open for different opinions/perspectives (I don't even know him). Only God is infallible; therefore, when it comes to experiences concerning humankind, one must remember there will be two sides to every story. People will trust you more if you allow for both sides of the coin to be revealed. That's one of the reasons why I left NTCC; I got tired of the sanctimonious, "everyone else is wrong, we're right" mentality. We as Christians must remember that none of us has a monolopy on the truth. What we have is the divinely inspired Word of God which reveals what YHWH wants us to know, not everything there is to know. Oh and just so you know I'm not bitter; I left NTCC years ago and didn't look back having already realized that God is much greater. Peace."
Does anyone see anything in my aforementioned two cents that would disqualify it as a post on an NTCC blog?
By the way Jeff, your blog is not only the best, it is also the most objective one I've read concerning NTCC. Thank you for your fairness.
Respectfully,
Student of the Word
Queshia wrote: It is so amazing to "see" you here since I have thought of you and Young Mi quite a bit since we left the church. She was also such a sweet person and earnest in her desire to be friendly.
Heather McCabe wrote:
I agree with ya Quesh..I always remember sis Johnson being VERY nice, always saying hello to me when I would arrive to church, or vise versa!
I can say for myself, we might not ALL have shared the exact same experience's, but the experience's we did share..BROUGHT US HERE to this blog to be able to release some 'anger', hurt, pain, or whatever else. I'm still healing, I'm still trying to understand how any 'Man of God', can twist the minds of ANYONE who's only desire was to learn the Word Of God!
I remember how happy I was to be saved, how excited I was too read my bible! When I didn't feel like NTCC was the church for me..I was told it WAS, by them manipulating my MIND.
One thing I will never forget...when I started attending, it was still a 'RULE', you had to be in the church for one year before you could attend conference!! Of-course I couldn't go to that next one cause I hadn't been there for a year..but I remember my own Mother telling me over the phone " Heather, it's a good thing you dont have to be saved for a year in order to go to heaven"!!!!!!!!
Well, I broke that rule.
I went to conference prior to being a year in the church, but Hannah allowed it.
Bro Johnson
I can't say anything in regard to this church of NTCC's in Junction City since I never attended it. But I just wanted to say.
I agree with this statement " Heather, it's a good thing you dont have to be saved for a year in order to go to heaven"!!!!!!!! I would have shouted Amen but everyone here is sleeping. And I am wide awake not even tired.
I did have Devonshire as my Pastor when I was living in Washington (rust bucket) state. But I can only speak from my experiences with him. Which were not similar to the men (considering I am female). He was a nice guy but also did things that were hurtful. But from what I have heard of other NTCC pastors. He was rather mild. I loved his wife to death. She is such a sweety. And even though Devonshire did what he did I still do not have hate or distain for him. I would totally still talk to him and his wife. Doesn't mean I would go back to NTCC because there is no way that is happening EVER! I hope that them becoming parents has opened their eyes to some things. Actually I pray that it has. And I don't just mean in way of how NTCC seems to not care for families with children. I am talking about in everything.
...Not all of us are sleeping IdahoAngie lol...
NS
Casey Hays wrote:
To those of you who don't know me, I was in NTCC for 24 years-- most of those as an ordained minister, and the main drummer up in Graham.
Hetaher McCabe says:
This might sound like a silly question, but I've always wondered their method of teaching in B.S? Do they teach you to twist scripture's, so that it blends into the NTCC 'Rules'?? For example..'womans hair', or 'woman wearing pants'.
Heather McCabe says:
Heather (instead of Hetaher) LOL!!
As a parent, you want the best for your kids.
You want them to be more successful than you!!
Having children really does open your eyes. God gave me new responsiblities that I did not have before.
If someone tries to hurt my kids, sorry, they are going down.
MLJ
I agree with you there MLJ. You just don't mess with my kids and expect me to stand there and let you. I am Mamma bear protecting her cubs.
As for being up that late....Kids summer school started and I didn't have to get up early this morning and friends who are basically family were driving through Idaho stopped for a visit for about 12 hours and we were up until right before I posted last night (early this morning)chatting away. And I always seem to be wide awake and not able to sleep after they pay a visit LOL.
Also I am pretty much done with my homework for this week so I actually have some free time to poke around on this blog. 4 more weeks of this class and then my summer break starts WOOT!
ok not summer school.. summer vacation...brain and fingers did not connect and I didn't proof read before I hit "publish your comment"
Heather,
I taught for a number of years in the bs. Amazingly, Davis did not tell me what or how to teach. He didn't give me any direction at all-- just, "You're teaching such a such classes this semester". I sincerely studied and taught to the best of my ability. However, I knew that Davis had his ways of finding out what you taught, and sometimes listened in at the door. Also, since I was in "NTCC Mode", I taught Bible with an ntcc slant. Not intentionally, per se, but just because when you believe something is a certain way, then you see things that way, whether it is true or not. I tried not to get too deep into holiness and such, because I felt that Christianity was alot more than dress, even though at the time I believed God was pleased with it. You can make the Bible support almost anything you believe, no matter how far-fetched, but generally speaking I tried to just teach the fundamentals of the Bible. I can't speak for the other teachers.
"I am sorry, I didn't think Rev. Devonshire, Rev. Bellamy, or Rev. Gandy were abusive.."
Dawn I appreciate your perspective, you seem to be an encourager of sorts. Thanks for the web-insights.
I grew up in an abusive household( I have since cautiously forgiven my parents). After a while a of being mistreated, I grew immune to it. Some kids lash out, or leave all together.
When I went to basic, all the Drill Sargent's stomping and yelling did not faze me. He even threw in some compliments after smokin' me into the ground.
Granted my skin was pretty thick when coming to NTCC, I still understood that there was mistreatment going on. Of course any abuse that I had felt....was shocking at first...then merely irritating due to my past experiences.
I saw my friends mistreated mostly. I saw people that I thought were their friends say "Amen" when accusations came across the pulpit. Even thought it wasn't directed it me...it still was abuse.
Question for everyone...
If my parents mistreated me, but not my brothers does it still make them abusive parents? Or are they good parents who were abusive to one kid? So what about such Pastors and their members? That is why they tell you not to have "best friends" so you don't feel for your friends when they get jacked up.
I don't know all the answers... but I know when I have mistreated people, sat under mistreatment...or clapped or said amen.
Reminds me of Matthew 27:24
"When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. "I am innocent of this man's blood," he said. "It is your responsibility!"
anyways...don't want to ramble
NS
Casey Hayes said...
Also, since I was in "NTCC Mode", I taught Bible with an ntcc slant. Not intentionally, per se, but just because when you believe something is a certain way, then you see things that way, whether it is true or not.
Heather says:
I understand a lot better now, thanks. I assumed maybe they said 'this is how you'll teach on this scripture' bla bla bla! I also understand the NTCC mode. I believed it as well, and when my family/friends would ask questions on different things...I would explain it, the way I believed!! Of course they would look at me crazy.
My mom has been saved for many years, and I remember being in the NTCC mode thinking 'she's not saved, she cuts her hair, and wears pants'!! After I stopped going to NTCC, I was so ashamed for judging her, I had to ask her for forgiveness.
Let me tell you. I was with a pastor who was abusive with everyone in his whole church!!!! I was with another who abused a woman who was around 60 years old. I was with four abusive pastors. There is no excuse for any of that stuff. It's a church not a boot camp. I actually heard a minister refer to the NTCC bible school as boot camp. I'm not so sure it's about a minister who abuses one but leaves the other alone? I think it may be more of one church member who doesn't really mind being talked to any old way and the other church member who sees it for what it is and can't stand it. I watched a brother get verbally abused and misused and it wasn't until I said something that he really internalized how the pastor had really talked to him. I guess he had just became used to being talked to like he was some kind of idiot but I never did.
It is kind of like a lady who gets beaten by her old man but she stays with him anyway and says "he loves her", right after he punches her in the face. NTCC church members see that kind of junk go on for so long that they become numb to the whole thing.
Jeff
Jeff,
Verbal abusive, and jacking people up is used so often in ntcc that after a while it becomes "normal". You begin to think that churches that are nice to people and preach an enjoyable sermon are compromising and worldly, because they don't shove the gospel down people's throats. It really isn't until after you leave that ntcc and see how "normal" churches act, do you look back with disgust and say to yourself, "I can't believe I allowed myself to be used and manipulated like that!! What was I thinking?!?"
As to church members and ministers allowing themselves to be abused I think it is a complicated group of personalities. Keep in mind that most people in ntcc are reached when they are in the military, so they are used to being given orders and taking orders. Ntcc uses this fact to their advantage. To simplify it, the basic personalities in ntcc are:
1. Those tough individuals that like to be given orders and obey without questioning anything. These people seem to thrive on being verbally abused-- probably from their military background in say, being a grunt or ranger.
2. The nice, gentle person that avoids conflict and just wants to please the leaders. These people believe that they "deserve" to be verbally abused, because they aren't being "good enough"-- which in ntcc, no matter how good you are, you will never be good enough.
3. Those people who are abusive themselves, and can't wait until they are in charge so they can be abusive and controlling.
4. Those people who see ntcc for the abusive church that it is, but are trapped from leaving-- either because their spouse is still "in", or they are afraid to leave. Eventually these people do leave, but usually after they have suffered so much mental anguish that it takes years to recover, if ever.
I would guess that in ntcc 75% of people are good people and 25% are the abusive, controlling types and are the ones in control as pastors and leaders. The 75% will rarely if ever rise to a leadership level in ntcc.
Just so you know I also had some good experiences in the NTCC. But if a man helps an old lady across the street one day but then a year later when he is broke he yanks a purse out of the arms of another old lady is he not wrong? I don't expect those guys to be perfect but too many of them are just total jerks and I witnessed it year after year in the NTCC and it is what it is.
Jeff said.
I was just thinking this exact samething. Many ntcc ministers can change to whatever the situation is. Some may say,oh so and so was a great minister. I loved him and his wife. Then another person can have the exact opposite reaction.
Dawn,Gandy did not want to drive your car. Because you are a female. And it would have been committing adultry! Talk to another woman that is adultry in rw's eye's.
CM
Jeff, Casey, CM
You explained my point exactly(probably better than I explained it)!
If a Pastor abuses one person in his flock and treats everyone -decent-, he is still abusive.
However, if he has seen the errors of his ways and has turned his back on such practices, then he is no longer guilty.
thanks,
NS
Awww CM...but my car was cool back then...it was a brand new '03 Chevy Cavalier. :-)
Well, I think my car is still cool now...been paid off for years, still runs awesome...as long as it's maintained. :-)
There is no doubt that preachers in ntcc practice favoritism. I've seen it time and time again. The minister would condemn someone of doing something, but if they like the person they give them a pass. They treat one couple good and another bad. Double-standards from the top to the bottom.
Something I have been tossing around. I had Rev. Devonshire as my pastor. Back before Sis. D left him for a short time. Back then he was joking,fun,loved his flavored coffee's. I am not sure what the guys would say about that time. We all had so much fun. And still brought folks to church. But after his wife left and came back. They were both different. Like they had to kiss up to rw and the the little crew of so called leaders and wive's. I would watch sis D come into the fellowship hall. And not look happy at all. But sit in one of the precious table that Verna and Tanya sat at. I think that was when they both changed.
I think so many minister's get in to ntcc. Fired up. And think what is taught to them is the gospel truth. And it has to work and be the right way if the man of God9rw) says it is so. So they go out and want to suceed and be a leader. And it isn't working. So they try harder,push the people. Still not working. They get mad,frustated. And then the devil has his hand in the work. It is ALL about Numbers!Not caring for the people. But making sure they have people warming those pew's. Wether they are growing in Gods grace. As long as money is being put in that offerring basket.
So much potentional ruined by just a few men and women.
CM
CM,
Very good insight. Behold a man who told everything that NTCC is.
That is the VERY thing that I have oftn wondered about!
I would not deny that the truth is being taught at NTCC Bible College.
Some of that truth may be half truths. I am talking about Davis advocating Finnis Dake's version of everything.
I have a Dake's Bible. I think Dake tends to exaggerate a bit.
I do like the Dake Bible, though.
Then NTCC throws in their spill or spin on everything. Now those are downright lies.
You add a lie to a truth and what do you get? Not God, but a demigod. Not truth, but a hald truth. Not fully baked (Hello!) but half baked.
If a pie is half baked then it is not patable nor edible for consumption.
Garbage in = Garbage out.
Bro Johnson
"but a hald truth"
Man, I am tired!!! A half truth.
Six more hours of this duty and I will be done!!!
Bro Johnson
Not more, but Demi Moore.
Yuk!!!
MLJ
NTCC leadership has ruined ALOT of good men and women. They have ruined ALOT of good marriages. They have ruined ALOT of children's childhoods. They have ruined ALOT of people's lives.
It is my sincere prayer that God ruins NTCC.
i would be very careful of the Dake Bible, it is filled with doctrinal errors-
http://www.ovrlnd.com/FalseDoctrine/drakesbible.html
t
this is kind off topic. But a person true story. I want to hear for the women on here. I have been trying to explain to my husband about the mental abuse I have gone through while in ntcc. I went from enjoying being a housewife and also working a job. To being a SAHM and no job,no social outlets. Hearing rw bash women. Put them down. Tell us we are just for Sex. What else do men need to get married for. BUT then turn around and tell men to take care of the women. And love them as Christ loved the church. And flip again. Tell women they can not wear anything the husband does not like. If you rack up a libary fine. The husband has the right to yank the library privlage. But then flip again. Tell a man you should help in the kitchen. But the woman should get in that kitchen and have that meal ready for her man. House spic and span. But get out there and soul-win any spare moment or get on the so called privlaged list to clean Tanya's home.
I was so confused just about ALL the time I was in ntcc. I think it was brainwashing. To keep me confused. Keep me in my place. I do think rw wants women just for sex. Doesn't care if we do have a mind,and opinions of our own. We were to be in subjection. SO NOW,I have no idea what is healthy subjection with my husband.
All of this has had it's effect on our marriage. So much that he is thinking of getting a divorce. Mainly because I have slacked on housework. Due to the tramau I have endured. I was rebelling. I have not wanted to listen to anyone tell me what to do. That does not make for a healthy marriage/relationship.
I am still confused. On healthy subjection. How to keep my home cleaned and also have a social life. Both get our needs met.
How have women dealt with this mental damage. And did you feel like we were brainwashed or kept confused. So we would not question and want to leave. I told my DH,if I did not like something then THERE WAS the door! So how in the world was I supposed to dicifer the Truth and what I was supposed to believe. I was VERY YOUNG when we got married. Had no foundation on knowing about relationship or even marriage. So what I have learned is from ntcc. and now trying to relearn EVERYTHING!!!
ANON
Anon: I am sad to hear your story. I created this blog for the purpose of warning people about the dangers of ever being associated with the NTCC. It's strange because I wanted and I still want people to write about their experiences with the NTCC and that is exactly what continues to happen quite regularly.
What's also happening is when I read stories like the one you just wrote, and it bothers me and changes my mood. I don’t know if I particularly like that occurrence but I guess you can’t have one without the other. I'm sure this blog is a necessary informational tool and I hope that it allows people like yourself to release some of your built up frustration and anger that so many of us have toward the NTCC. Every time I read another testimony like the one that you wrote, it continues to confirm in my mind how utterly damaging the NTCC is to the lives of so many people.
I hope everything works out for you.
Jeff
Thank you Jeff. For your concern for me and for many other's. I hope our stories will prevent people from even joining up with ntcc. Or for folks just starting out to leave!
I am very thankful for this venue. Many of us have held our stories inside. And now we can share what we went through. And find out that others went through some of the same junk and mental anguish. Very little is good about ntcc. And so much is evil and Very Dark!
For me,help me understand what I have went through. To help me move on and not blame God.It is not Gods fault we got involved in ntcc. Something I just read makes sense. If you play cards. You have to take the hand that is dealt you. But how you manage that hand is up to you. We are dealt how life is,but how we handle it . It up to us.
ANON
You know Anon, what you wrote is true. I could have put my foot down long before I did. I had plenty of horrible experiences while in the NTCC so why didn't I leave earlier? I think what it boils down to is that many of us simply found it hard to except, that we ALLOWED ourselves to be deceived as long as we did.
Hey lets face it. Who wants or likes to admit to them self, that they essentially allowed a scam to be perpetuated in their lives for years? Who likes to admit that so many of their so called friends were no more that a bunch of double standard practicing hypocrites? Who wants to admit to their own family, that for 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, or even in some cases 30 years, that they believed something was one way when actually they were totally wrong? It was easier for us to stick around the NTCC for yet another year and live in denial than to finally admit to ourself and everyone else that we had been played like a fiddle!!!!
Sooner or later you have to stand up and face the facts, but unfortunately that took too many of us entirely too many years to do that. So whats the answer? Who knows?
I know one thing for sure. My life certainly is not over and I don't plan on getting mixed up with any abusive church cults in the future so I have the rest of my life to look forward to and it is look brighter every day.
Jeff
ANON,
My heart goes out to you! I went through the same things, although my husband.
First of all when RW says "Men love your wives as Christ loved the Church." Don't believe it! Its the weird little mind games that NTCC likes to play on people. Kinda like when they tell you to come to church as you are, then jack you up for wearing jeans.
The women are just for sex...believe that!
You are going to have to bear with your husband and see him as God does. Do loving non-church activities with him, like going for walks or reminiscencing on the porch. I know the schedule that NTCC keeps is impossible, but do the best you can.
Be the best housewife you can, even when he is mad at you for missing church etc or the Pastors putting a bug in his ear on how to treat you. It is hard to stay mad at a good meal or crisply iron shirts.
Another thing is take one special social time for yourself. The catch is you may have to cut into some church activities, which would make for a grumpy husband. If you come home happy and gleeful he should be happy too.
It is extremely difficult for women to leave in NTCC. If a man leaves NTCC, the wife is instructed to not have sex with him. However, you still have to be a Godly wife to a point.
When women leave NTCC, their husband has total control. The husband is instructed to give them the minimum to live on. He has pretty much free reign to make your life pure Hell, and still be "right with God."
Most of all pray...pray...pray! Find some other supportive Christian friends to help you through!
I hope this helps,
sorry if there is any confusion. I am OUT of ntcc!!
I wanted to hear from women that have been out. And know about the brainwashing we have been through. And how to explain this to my husband. He thinks I should have been able to figuire it out. But rw would go back and forth all the time. I was confused.
ANON
ANON,
You stated
"But get out there and soul-win any spare moment or get on the so called privlaged list to clean Tanya's home".
These references to cleaning Tanya's house are starting to disgust me. OK Tanya. For one thing, the Master is not above his servant. Why not truely lead the way and take care of you OWN HOUSE that was funded by our tithes and offerings "as unto the Lord" or "as the Lord seems fitting to dispurse" or "If it be the will of the Lord" (inside joke from another blog)
In fact, Tanya, why not truly do what you were callled to do: to be a helper, and go CLEAN OTHER PREACHERS HOUSES. Why not just humble yourself and pray, and seek God's face, Tanya, and just go clean a new member's house?
Sometimes you never really know about how someone is living inot you go over to their house.
I'm sure Grant, after graduating from his 20K a year high school has nothing else going on. In fact, he could drop you off to one house a day in your 50K, oh, excuse me - Kekel's 50K red Benz.
Tanya Kekel, what say you??
MLJ
Like I have been saying. Mike and Tanya are the pimp and the pimpstress. They are too total jerks that should be totally ashamed of themselves for ever allowing even one person to get put on a list to come clean their house. That ain't Christianity, that is slavery and that is USING people. I didn't know there was such people as "Christian pimps"? Mike and Tanya are pimps who prostitute their church members. Their not giving them blessings.
I just can't understand that? You talk about brainwashing and manipulation. That is as bad as it gets. I'm with you on that Bro J. Every time I read about that garbage it just burns me up.
Jeff
Anon,
I am not sure if I felt brainwashed per se, confusion I could vouch for. I couldn't understand all the rule changes. It was frustrating that a Pastor could go to the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin language when you asked why women should wear dresses.
However, if you asked him why T. Kekel worked outside of the home... you got a "seems right to the Lord." answer 0 scripture reference. If you pressed the issue, you were found to be a fault finder!
I couldn't understand why we had to pay mortgage, on a property that was paid for by our tithes and offerings. I didn't understand why missions when under, when me and 1000 other people agreed to give 5 dollars a month.
Anon, surround yourself with other Christians, that is the only way you will be able to understand.
NS
Anon (whom ever you may be),
I wasn't in NTCC as long as a lot of other women. My Husband was never in NTCC. But I wanted to say a few things.
I wasn't very respectful of my husband before NTCC. So some of the things they taught to the women I needed to hear. But most of it is a line of crap.
You are right RW Davis has absolutely no respect for women. I am sure he has more respect for his daughter then his own wife. But he would turn his back on both of them if they ever once questioned him.
Ok now some advice from me to you or any other wife who was or is still in NTCC.
you are in the recovery process or healing process, which ever you want to call it. Your family needs to understand that and let you deal with it. Who cares if you neglect your normal duties? You need to heal and they need to let you and they need to pick up the slack and help out so that you can.
A lot of men do not know what it means to be a stay at home mom. Even without kids you are pretty busy but usually not as busy as you are with kids. My husband knows what I deal with on a daily basis so he has no arguments with the way I address the house work. There have been a few times he had to stay home and take care of everything while I was sick or recovering from surgery or out of town for an emergency or even a vacation. I handle a lot more then most stay at home moms do. I not only handle normal at home duties, I am a full time student, I teach sunday school, I am on the praise and worship team at our church, I am also in charge of the budget because the hubby likes how I handle it. There are certain things he asks that I do when doing the budget and I do. The rest is up to me.
One other thing. You need to take time for yourself. Either go hang out with a friend, call someone, go for a drive, go get your hair or nails done, or do something you love and don't worry about anything else.
A true husband will (even if he doesnt know the full extent of his wifes daily routine with or without children) respect his wife for the things that she does do in the home or bring to the home. Try to understand when she is going through a hard time (depression, recovering from a cult experience, etc), and not be a jerk for it.
Trust me I've been there. The hardest part of my early recovery process when I left NTCC was when my husband just refused to understand why I was depressed and having such a hard time. And he hated how I was treated in NTCC so while I was going through my depression, etc. He would rant and rave about how I was treated which just made me feel worse.
I know some men don't like it when their woman/wife is like that. But mine usually complains if I am quiet. It freaks him out. But if I let him know how I feel then he is less annoying.
I don't know why some people just can't accept that their family member, spouse, etc has been through such a bad experience and just sit back and try and help them through the healing process or just let them be until they ask for help. But the thing that I think is the worst thing a person could do is to expect a person who has just left a cult to continue as if nothing ever happened. Because that isn't going to happen. Eventually your going to have a break down. You need the time to heal. NO matter how long it takes.
And please keep in mind not all churches are bad. NTCC will leave a bad taste in your mouth. THey did me. And I grew up in church. I was saved before NTCC. It took me 3 years to get to where I could go to church again. I can not count on all my fingers and toes how many churches I visited after I left NTCC. And I had to force myself to go to church when I was looking.
(I'll finish this post in another post)
DO NOT JUST START GOING TO THE FIRST CHURCH YOU VISIT unless you know without a shadow of a doubt and feel it in your spirit that that is where you are supposed to be. And if you ever feel like you should leave a church pray about it and if God is pressing on your heart to leave a church then leave God does move people on for many reasons. Just because your in a church today does not mean God is going to keep you in that church for life.
If your kids don't like the church don't go. That should be a major factor in church hunting. Infact if you have kids you should make your decision on your kids feelings unless they are really rebellious kids. One thing I will never do ever again is force my kids to go to a church that they do not like.
Your hubby bless his heart is probably having a hard time trying to find ways to comfort you. He probably is just as lost as you are. He probably see's your hurt and has no clue how to help and he probably feels helpless. I have no idea if your husband was in NTCC. I am guessing that he might not have been and I am sorry if I am wrong. But that might be harder for him to understand since he did not have the experience as you did. You've got to find a way to explain to him that you received a lot of emotional and spiritual damage and it is going to take you some time to recover. Ask him or say "I would appreciate it if you could just pray that God will help me through this." And if he rants and raves about how you were treated and you don't much care for it just ask him nicely to not because it hurts you more. Let him know you understand how he feels but him yelling about it is not helping you heal.
I still struggle with some issues due to my NTCC experience but for the most part life is once again somewhat normal.
(continuing once again in another post LOL)
I am not your typical female. I say what is on my mind. I tell it like it is. I don't sugar coat. I don't kiss butt, and if I don't like something I will let you (you as in anyone who I don't agree with)know, I don't follow all the rules (if God didn't give it then there is a good chance I won't follow it), I am myself and if no one likes it not my problem, I do not care for people who lie and if I catch a person telling a lie I will put them in their place and if they keep up with the lies I probably will stop associating with them, I won't lie because I hate it that much.
I believe families are important and wedding vows are sacred. I don't much care for people who jump into marriage without getting to know each other (and no I don't mean sexually). But I know of marriages that have lasted so I can't say I hate rushed marriages. I don't think any church or any person has a right to step in and try and break up a marriage. If a man and a woman decide to divorce I much rather like to hear that they just decided to divorce, not that some church or some holier then thou moron caused it.
If anyone is considering divorce look at the facts. why are you wanting a divorce? Is it because you don't want to work on the problems, want to just walk away without dealing with things? Or are there issues that just can't be fixed or helped with counseling.
And to those of you who are against counseling or are afraid to seek help because of your ego.... get a back bone! Get help if you need it. Rather its just counseling for you or for your marriage. Marriage counseling saved our marriage. Get a christian counselor they are so much better then ones who are not christians. Surround yourself with people who care. Find someone you know you can talk to. Get a good church home. Don't go hating God or other Christians because of your experience in NTCC. NTCC is so small in comparison to all the wonderful churches that are out there. Don't let one bad experience leave a bad taste in your mouth. There is hope. There is a God. And he wants to see you healed just as much as your family and friends. If you need help than my God, get help. Trust me it helps. Having your family understand what emotional trama you are going through and the healing process your going through helps too. If you don't want them to bug you let them know that you appreciate that they care but that you just want to go through it on your own. If they are complaining about NTCC and how you were treated and you don't want to hear it, let them know.
Most of all take time for yourself. Even if it is just for an hour or two one day a week. I am sure your husband would understand. If he doesn't, please believe me you are not the one with the problem. Even married couples need to spend an hour or two apart from each other (Other then working outside the home) once in a while. It helps you realize just how much you care for each other.
Also the worst thing you could possibly do is drown your experience in alcohol or drugs. I know so many people who instead of getting help after leaving NTCC have turned to the alcohol or drugs. It will just make your pain worse. Please if you feel that bad seek counseling. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with seeing a Christian counselor. Biblically based counseling is THE BEST counseling there is. You deserve so much more then a bottle of alcohol or drugs that are either illegal or not prescribed to you (they are illegal if they are not your own prescription).
Not dealing with the damage is a whole lot worse in the long run then going ahead and dealing with it and getting it done and over with.
Questio: Would you rather wallow in your pain and hurt for years on end before seeking help or would you rather heal and get on with life no matter how long it took as long as you were on the road to recovery?
Living in the Past will NOT help you heal. Living with anger will NOT help you heal. You can forgive without going back to a bad situation. Forgiveness is key and is crucial in the healing process. Don't worry about what those people are up to that hurt you. They don't matter. Most of them probably don't even care. Just tell God you forgive them (and you have to mean it, harboring hate and anger for someone will not get you forgiveness. The bible says if you can not forgive others God will not forgive you).
Angie,
Thanks for the excellent post.
I have to say, as a husband, that I regularly vacuum, wash dishes, and pick up around the house. Not every time, but alot of the time. I do it to help out my wife. It doesn't make me less of man to do housework. I look at marriage as a partnership, not a dictatorship. Alot of ntcc teachings about the man being "in charge" has caused alot of stress in marriages-- some to the point of failing. Then they'll blame the wife, because she "didn't submit" to her husband, even though he was a tyrrant and a jerk. NTCC's view of woman was always something that bothered me, because I met women all the time who were good bosses, leaders, or just had more common sense than their husbands. Not everyone, but enough to let me know that ntcc's views of women were warped. I strongly believe that RW Davis has a very low opinion of women. He is very chauvanistic. The day I started treating my wife like an equal was the day our marriage succeeded. We just celebrated 20 years.
anon,
there will be plenty of worldly counsel on how to handle thingsand most of it is with good intentions but will only lead to confusion.
my advice: begin to study the word book by book, cast all your cares upon him, and be patient enough to allow god to show you from his word exactly how he desires you to respond
Jesus is the wonderfull counselor who will never let us down!!
sincerely,
t
Angie,
Good post! Better spoken than I could write. You said you were saved before NTCC....did they still make you pray for salvation?
NS
Casey,
If you don't mind I would like another man's view on women and the subjection topic.
rw was always going back and forth with women and how to treat them. One day it was help her in the kitchen. The next she is just for sex. My DH thinks you have to take it All into contex. He believes that rw is not a woman hater. I totally disagree. He would smile and talk to a sister. But does he respect women. NO WAY!
So I would sit there in utter confusion. How a woman is to be in subjection. Without having a man ruling her life. Is it ok for me to want my DH to help out once in a while. I was supposed to put this all into contex. When I had nothing to fall back on. No life experience's. Ntcc molded and shaped me. What I was learning about life,was from ntcc. So now I am left with nothing. And starting from scratch in so many area's.
Angie,
You are right in the area. That my DH is not supporting or trying to understand my depression and anxiety attacks!! I did go back to therapy yesterday. I stopped before,unsure of what I was doing. This time,I am getting help. And Gasp,I am getting medicine to help me!! Maybe he will see the difference and realize. Wow,she has been depressed. I hope so.
ANON
Anon,
I was depressed/ anxious at my time @ NTCC, however most of it was due to military related PTSD. I was unable to receive proper treatment, because NTCC's hatred of psychologists,their views on sexual assault, therefore my husbands non-support. It definitely had a hand in ending my marriage.
Now I am on medication, and therapy and have been given a new lease on life. I commend you ANON for taking steps to heal thyself.
Bellah-Donya N.
If there was one HUGE lesson I learned from 24 years of ntcc it is this-- I will NEVER again allow a church, person, authority figure, or anybody else make decisions regarding what is best for me, my kids, my wife, or our future. They can ALL go jump off a cliff!
Bellah-Donya N.
Funny that is what my therapist has diagnoised me with. PTSD. Because of the tramau many of us went through. It has done so much damage to my head,self esteem,how I think and reason things out.
My DD is trying to self heal himself. And escape in his computer game's. Where he feels safe and in control.
I am in more control now. Then I have been in a Very long time. I used to think if my DH divorced me. it would be the end of my world. I am not thinking that way anymore. Will continue to work on our marriage. But I am also thinking about myself and doing stuff for ME!
And pray that this is not what breaks us up.
mmm. I got alot to keep a therapist busy. I was also sexual assaulted while in the military,beat as a child,then stuck in a cult and now possible divorce. Sometimes i think what a mess this all is.
Time to get back in the saddle and take control.
ANON
Anon,
Wow God put us on here together on this blog! I suffered the same abuse you did! I was abused by my father (horrific abuse that had to go to the state), sexually assaulted in the military, suffered abuses from my ex-husband. When I turned NTCC for help when I became symptomatic(nightmares, flashbacks, anger) NTCC said the sexual assault was my fault, and that the child abuse was in the past. The reason I was having a hard time was because I had sin in my life.The Pastor said my faith was lacking and that I did not pray hard enough. It burns me so much because my life(and my kids) was almost ruined over something that was easily treatable! Not to shamelessly plug my blog, Anon if you want a voice or some insight my blog is DaughtersofAthena. It primarily deals with women who were sexually assaulted in the military. God bless you and keep you Anon! God is a healer, a counselor, and a wonderful savior!
BN
Casey, Congrats on your 20th anniversary. We are fixing to celebrate our 11th. Something most people said would never happen. But yea we like to prove them wrong everyday and we rub it in too!
NS, Some people tried for about 3 months or was it 4? To get me to go up to the pulpit to pray for salvation and I just kept telling them I had already done that. Eventually they gave up. But it was very annoying.
Anon, I was in service when Davis said if his wife ever chose to leave NTCC that she would leave with the clothes on her back and that was it. That right there proves to me that he hates women. If she wanted to she could send him to the cleaners. My Husbands grandparents are so stuck in the 1940's and they are not happily married but they stay together. So I know Sister Davis will never leave RWD. She is so used to the life and is so old there is no way she could survive outside of ntcc.
I am glad that your getting help and if you need to be on medication than go for it. Whatever helps is whatever helps.
If you ever need someone to talk to besides your counselor feel free to hit me up. I feel it helps and helped to talk to people who had been there with me (not literally but the same organization and experiences). And a Christian counselor also helps much more then a wordly one because they use the bible to back it up. I am actually persuing a degree in Psychology at a Christian University right now. But I want to work with children.
I won't post my info here(last time I did that on factnet I got a lot of harassing emails and only one good one, even though the situation didn't turn out like I would have hoped, God did some healing there).
Jeff has my number and I am giving him permission to give it to you if you want to call me. If I don't answer just leave a message and I will return your call. I usually answer but there is the rare moment that I don't hear it or can't get to the phone in time. He also has my email (if he saved it LOL) if you would rather email me. Don't worry I won't psycho analyze you. I don't mind being a sounding board or someone to talk to or vent to. I know it helped me a lot to have someone to talk to and it still does. I still have hard days.
Belle,
God has brought us together. I do hope's in helping each other. My Mom abused me physically and mentally. Calling me Bitch,fat. Beating me. But the wonderful thing about that. She has apolgized as much as she can about being tough on me. She has grown closer to God. And right now,has been a big help since leaving the cult and now with my marriage trouble's. We are growing closer. But we still irk each other as Mother and Daughters do.
I left that and joined the military. I did thrive on a life in the military. If not for a injury. I would have stayed in. I so looked forward at that time being a SAHW and a SAHM. ntcc sucked any enjoyment or excitment out of me.
I once wrote a note to rw. Concerning sex drive and pleasing my man. After sufferring sexual assault. He ignored my question. Said it did not matter. As I went on your blog. Reading your stories. It is bringing up alot of memories for me. Stuff I have pushed down for so long. Never really thinking that episode affected me or my marriage. It has! How I parent my children. I try hard not to spank them.
Angie,I have turned to alchohol in the past. Something I am making sure I don't do this time. I thought ntcc had saved me from a life as a drunk.
I do thank both of you ladies. For taking the time and writing to me on this blog. Has been very helpful. Guys as well. But we ladies went through so much bashing and putting us down. I am being weepy,HEALING!!
ANON
Casey said...
They can ALL go jump off a cliff!
Jeff said...
Amen.
Jeff
BN said...
"NTCC said the sexual assault was my fault, and that the child abuse was in the past."
Jeff said...
Who ever the NTCC minister was that told you that needs to get punched in the face. I'm not exaggerating either. He needs to be sent to jail so Bubba can have his way with him and then he would learn not to make such a stupid, insensitive, uneducated and utterly ridiculous statement.
It's testimonies like that one that result in me having just that much more disdain for the NTCC than I had yesterday which was quite a bit already. Those creeps never cease to amaze me. I hope that NTCC folks read what was written by BN and come to the realization that they are in fellowship with a bunch of unqualified, insensitive creeps.
Jeff
Jeff.
Angie wrote...
Jeff has my number and I am giving him permission to give it to you if you want to call me. If I don't answer just leave a message and I will return your call. I usually answer but there is the rare moment that I don't hear it or can't get to the phone in time. He also has my email (if he saved it LOL) if you would rather email me. Don't worry I won't psycho analyze you. I don't mind being a sounding board or someone to talk to or vent to. I know it helped me a lot to have someone to talk to and it still does. I still have hard days.
Jeff said...
Angie is a very good person to talk to. I absolutely have no problem with being the mediator if you all would like to swap phone numbers. I don't post anything on this blog or give out phone numbers without explicit permission from the individual involved.
As most of you know I can be contacted at 404-405-7842 and I can make arrangements if any of you would like to make contact. This blog is taking an interesting turn. I am all for this blog being used to bring exNTCC people together as well as to warn people about the dangers surrounding involvement with the NTCC.
If there is any way I can help just let me know. I feel for all of you.
404-405-7842
Jeff
i think this blog is beginning to sound to much like a psyco-therapy support group.
while that is needed and can bring healing if its practiced in a biblical manner, it is not really the purpose of the blog
i think we need to get back to exposing ntcc for what it is in a rational, non-emotional way with confirmation by people who have experienced it first hand
i am not meaning to sound unsympathetic, but i think that lingering on about our problems is only going to give rise for ntcc to rationalize that they were right in the first place
please dont misunderstand me! there is a place for "the healing process" but i dont think it is here
sincerely,
t
i may be wrong, but im just giving my opinion
T said...
"I think this blog is beginning to sound to much like a psyco-therapy support group.
While that is needed and can bring healing if its practiced in a biblical manner, it is not really the purpose of the blog"
Jeff said...
T: I understand your point and I also understand why you feel that way. Whats interesting is that some of these people ARE actually telling stories that expose the NTCC in the process.
One lady spoke of how an NTCC minister said it was her fault because she had been sexually and physically assaulted. Others have talked about various different kinds of abuse that they received at the hands of an NTCC pastor.
However T; you are absolutely right when you say that the purpose of this blog is to expose the NTCC, and the title of the blog is "True Stories Of Life In The New Testament Christian Churh." Without doubt, my ultimate goal for this blog is to see people write of their personal experiences while "IN" the NTCC that expose the NTCC for what it truly is. If people will do this, it will not only help people who have left the NTCC, but it will help people to leave who are already in the NTCC or are thinking of entering the NTCC.
The NTCC is a destructive cult that PROMOTES and practices psychological abuse and manipulation, double standards, false doctrine that can't be validated by the bible, hypocrisy, and a greedy money driven agenda that for the most part only benefits the few elite because of practice of NEPOTISM. I.E. Kekel, RWD, Kinson, Ashmore, Johnson and a few others.
Having said that there were and are many people who have been mentally messed up by the NTCC. Of that I am certain. The NTCC as a group remains TOTALLY uncompassionate while lacking COMMON decency. Because they display these characteristics, very few NTCC pastors show any true TANGIBLE love for anyone.
So when I read these stories I feel compassion for these people, and I figure that if this blog can be used to help heal some of these folks than I am all for it. I am no Psychologist, Psychotherapist, or Psychiatrist however I do know for sure that it helps if you can talk to someone who has gone through the same thing that you have. Around the time that I left the NTCC it helped me a lot when I talked to people that went through the same kind of garbage that I experienced. I didn't have a psychological problem but it did confirm in my mind that I wasn't the only one who knew that the NTCC is FULL, FULL, FULL of a bunch of insensitive, abusive jerks, who have no business in the ministry or any other leadership position for that matter.
Jeff
valid points Jeff!
t
like a psyco-therapy support group.
while that is needed and can bring healing if its practiced in a biblical manner
T,said.
So what is healing done in a biblical manner mean? How is that done. Compared to any other way of helping a person that has endured tramua to the brain.
CM
Idaho Angie,
I was thinking upon your statement of you being already saved before going to NTCC. NTCC Pastors, at least the one's I have met, seem to have disdain for those who claim to know Christ already. How many times have you heard the phrase "God raised us up", or other churches are compromisers and hypocrites. Sounds like a good thread topic :)
I saw a program on Cults on the National Geographic Channel. They seemed to have emphasized this point of cults minimizing other churches.
I had cut back at going to NTCC at another location, for the simple fact I was neglecting my family and I was tired! Well the Pastor decided that I wasn't saved because I wouldn't go soul winning or attend church everyday. So he had a sister bug me to death to pray for salvation. I told her I am already saved. This went on a few times until, her that she was asking me to call God a liar by praying for salvation again.
NS
whoops...sorry that last part I meant until I told the sister she was calling God a liar by asking me to pray for salvation when I was already saved.
NS
cm,
i believe that today's idea of psychology is of little help to the christian, in that it is entirely "egocentric"
i know there are churches that go way to far and make you feel that your not saved if your seeking worldly counsel...that is not what i am saying
Charles Spurgeon who is one of the greatest preachers who ever lived struggled tremendously with depression
i personally believe that my "psychologist" is Jesus and i bring my problems to him because he is the "wonderful counselor"
he understands me better than i can possibly understand myself and much better than another person ever could.
like peter says "casting all your cares upon him, for he cares for you" the word 'cares' is the word for anxieties
i believe no matter how messed up we are (and i am pretty messed up) that Jesus is able to heal me and comfort me if i bring my problems to him and seek his heart in the word of God.
maybe some of you feel differently, but that is my sincere thought on the matter
ps- there is a place for human counsel, because the book of Romans tells us that "you are able to 'admonish' one another - the word admonish means to counsel
the problem is finding people who are mature enough and trustworthy enough in the word, and who will completely keep confidences
sincerely,
t
T,
I believe Jesus is a wonderful councelor and he heals, however He does His Healing in due time
T,
Not so sure I trust Jesus to be my healer. And take care of my care's. Casting my care's upon him. So far he has come up completely dry. Not seen any healings when I prayed for family members. Was stuck in a cult for way to many years. Now my DH is thinking of getting a divorce. I am afraid of praying for Gods help. Thinking,well so far he has not been there.
I am not so freaked out. With people in our out of the church. I trust my therapist. So much I have shared and then she has brought out stuff I never thought about. Ex. I was in an abusive relationship. With ntcc,rw and the leaders./ I stayed much longer. Like a abused woman. Who doesn't leave and comes up with excuse's.
Serotin imbalance's is nothing to mess with.
So what do you do ,T in the meantime. While your waiting for God to heal you. You stay depressed,Major anxiety attacks,flashbacks. And it is ruining my marriage,my quality of life!
CM
JEFFREY COLLINS SAID....
Does everyone see what took place with CM? Does everyone understand? I do. The NTCC has been used to totally destroy this woman's faith and can you blame her? I don't blame her and I understand CM. What she doesn't need is a bunch of folks to try and convince her that she is wrong whether that is what they believe or not. That is the way the NTCC operates. They insist that everyone is less spiritual when their faith fails, but I have seen to many NTCC ministers preach so hard about faith, just to see their faith completely fail as soon as the church funds start to dry up. I saw it happen to Ramirez, Mayers, and Oberhauser. They all started TRIPPIN when the going got tough.
What CM needs is people who will truly show concern and some real love that is not contingent upon whether or not she believes or has the same faith that they do. It's easy to say how much faith we all have until the going gets tough on us, and then I have seen faith change with virtually every person that I have ever met.
So as a result I understand EXACTLY how CM feels and it is sad that the NTCC has so effectively done so much damage in her life and that is exactly why I created this blog. To try and prevent folks from winding up in the same position that CM is in as we speak.
According to the Bible, Christ wants us to show love in deed and in truth and not just write it or speak it. The first way that people show love is to try and understand their fellow man and help such a person. The NTCC has done a horrible job at both.
CM doesn't need anyone to preach to her and of that I'm certain. The NTCC won't lift a finger to help the woman out and never has and that is also for sure. NTCC people are notorious for being CRITICAL and that is not what CM needs.
CM: I don't know exactly what you are going through, but I do understand you feeling the need to do what you need to, in order to try and work things out.
CM's testimony is exactly why I can't stand the NTCC.
JEFF
CM wrote:
Not so sure I trust Jesus to be my healer.
Jeff said...
Not sure a whole lot of other people do either, CM. Olson's daughter recently got quite sick and you better believe she was sent to the hospital. Everyone I ever knew in the NTCC used a doctor when it was necessary. They didn't just keep their sick loved ones at home while they did no more than pray to Jesus. They took action by consulting a doctor and seeking medical attention and they probably prayed also, so don't let the super spiritual folks try to make you feel that you should do any different. I have seen plenty of NTCC folks go to the hospital. I wonder where Olson and Ashmore the "healers" were, when so many NTCC folks wound up in the hospital? Maybe Olson and Ashmore aren't the big healers that they made themselves out to be in the church services that I actually witnessed?
Go ahead and pay all your tithe money to the NTCC and you will get rich. I have sure seen a whole bunch of broke NTCC pastors and ministers. Well there are some exceptions. God has made sure that he has blessed Kekel and RWD because they are more spiritual than the majority of you NTCCers. God has taken care of Kinson who is Johnson's son in law also. Don't you know that God can only really bless family members of NTCC leaders? All you have to do is read it in the Bible. Look up the word nepotism. Oh, that is not in the Bible? The NTCC sure had me fooled!!!
Jeff
Jeff,I sure do appreciate this blog. And your encouraging and supportive words. It is like a drink of fresh water in the middle of a desert.
I read your words and think wow. Thank you for understanding me. And not judging me. I have had that lack of faith for so long. But never voiced it until that post. For me. I want to follow God and his word. But when it gets tough,or sickness come's. I don't have any faith there. To cast my care's to God. And he will poof,take care of it. But on his timing,not mine. So say,I got mental depression going on. I do nothing. But wait on God to heal my brain? I don't think so. I got to take action and do what I can to help myself. He made us self suffucient,able to make decisions and disern. He gave us the knowledge to help ourselve's. With medicine. Even back in the time of American Indians,they still used what was available to heal wounds,sickness.
I wonder does anyone really believe in just God taking care of all situations. Illness,financial problems,ect. Or do you take your own actions.
CM
Jeff,thanks again for getting me. Reading my ramblings and get what i am saying. Thanks so much. Many have told me that I jump around and don't make much sense. You can read it,and know what I am saying. And read into my message. And help me really understand my thoughts and feelings. That is Awesome!
T,
You can live in the past. If your brain is stuck in a certain spot in the past. You know,I can remember the first service when I got to WA. Rw was preaching and he bashed and bashed women. This was before it was open to the public. It was a relief when it was opened up. He was alot less blunt.
It was said that you can move on until you conqueor whatever battle your in. For me,I can't move on and totally heal.
So I guess in some sense I am living in the past.
CM
CM: I really do believe that God has helped me along the way but the fact is, I can't prove it. It sure seems that way sometimes. Periodically things seem to work out in my life in such an unpredictable, out of the ordinary fashion, that it seems like it must be God. With that being said I do take definitive steps to insure that things work out as well. Things like trying to do a good job at work, paying the bills, taking my son to the doctor if he gets sick and so on.
I don't wait for God to do everything for me by any means. Once again it does appear as though God takes up the slack every now and then. Of course I can't prove that but it does appear to be that way sometimes. My life has been full of troubles most of which were self inflicted. Like the NTCC for example. I didn't have to put up with garbage from NTCC pastors and eventually I stopped but not until I had already put up with entirely too much.
The problem that I have with the NTCC is that they claim to be such great people of God and they obviously are not. I can't stand a hypocrite. If the truth be known, more and more I don't particularity care for church folks in general. I get so sick of hearing all the churchy rhetoric. Sayings like; "I'm blessed", or "It seemed good to the Lord", or "praise God", or "God bless you", or "I'm praying for you".
NTCC folks are notorious for saying, I'm praying for you. They generally make that statement when THEY FEEL that you are having what they consider to be a problem with God. They always say that to folks who leave their church. If they did more praying for themselves they would figure out that they need to leave the NTCC also.
You hear the same type of rhetoric out of Baptist folks also and pretty much all non-denominational Christians. They always throw a churchy spin on a good number of their statements. It has become so fake to me because that is exactly what it is.
So what I am saying is that I am not one of those super spiritual folks but I do believe that God involves himself in our lives. Exactly when, why, and how I don't know and most folks who claim to know, don't know either.
Jeff
CM said...
So I guess in some sense I am living in the past.
Jeff said...
I wouldn't have this blog if I wasn't living in the past to some degree. Nevertheless this blog does serve to help folks in the "future", come to the realization of just how crooked the NTCC really, truly is.
CM: I want you to know that I consider t a very smart guy who has an extremely good understanding of exactly how the NTCC operates. I believe that t understands the NTCC better than most. We are generally on the same sheet of music with few exceptions. It appears to me that we actually think quite a bit alike, especially where the NTCC is concerned. I know what t is thinking often before he even replies to someones statement because I am generally thinking the same thing. Yes we are different but I respect t's opinion a great deal. We also think a lot alike where this blog is concerned and how to help it become a more effective tool used to expose the NTCC.
Jeff
cm and jeff,
i totally agree with you about the "christianiese" practiced by most churches, i know someone who says "i ministered to them" and i cant stand that, but you know that is who he is.
my personal belief is that Jesus came to reveal himself to the people just like us who are fed up with traditional organized 'religion'
that being said, i think it is also tragic that most who leave ntcc will just throw away their faith in God due to a bad representation of him by so called christians
my personal belief is that the word of God is inspired and inerrent and that Jesus is truly king of kings and lord of lords, with that i do think he is sovereign over every circumstance and more gracious and merciful than we could ever comprehend in this lifetime
but....there is a place for trust(in him)
once we give that up we are no longer holding to the god of the bible
lest i sound like a pharisee, i have rebelled against god in my life and spit in his face only to have him graciously accept me back as a loving father-no strings attached!!!!
as far as seratonin goes.....maybe luke was the pharmacist that administered the drugs for jesus....sorry, bad joke
is it possible that our minds respond chemically to our attitudes? and not vice versa
i think we live in a culture today that has become a "dependence upon anything but jesus" culture
i guess what i am trying to say is:
Jesus is still real and we have to LEARN to trust him regardless of what man or religion has done to us, otherwise, what is there in this world, what is the purpose of life
and yes, i have struggled with deep depression and thoughts of suicide, i can understand how that is
sincerely,
t
Sorry for the slow respose. I am cramming right now. I have a final paper due in 2 weeks and I will be on vacation so I am trying to get it done before my vacation starts even though my Professor gave me permission to turn it in late. I would rather turn it in early.
OK back to responding
To NS: I don't believe in Once saved always saved because I know you can backslide. But I do believe if you haven't left God then what is the point of praying for salvation again? So what was the point in me praying for salvation just to place the people badgering me to do it? I am not a people pleaser. Many have already found that out and more probably will.
CM I have to reply to what you said to those speaking on trusting God. Please I know you probably not want to hear this but I am going to say it anyway. God answers prayers in his time not ours. Sometimes prayers remain unanswered for a number of years or God chooses to answer them differently then we want them answered and we don't even know he answered them because we are in such a self pitty mode. I know because I've been there. I don't hold it against God because I still have many a health problems since birth that he hasn't healed. He uses everything for his glory rather we understand it or not. One thing I learned is in order to let God help we have to really let go. As in stop trying to control everything, stop trying to tell God how to do his job, etc. Keep praying even if we feel like God is not there. Keep on keeping on! God will answer in his time and in his way. Who are we to tell him how to do his job? He has a reason for everything that he allows or does, who are we to judge him? Every experience we go through can be used to help someone else. And oh my gosh! The joy when you can talk to someone and help them (at least for me) is awesome! So I've learned no matter what to just stop telling God and demanding God to do what I want. Because obviously the things I am going through or have gone through are put there for a reason rather I see the reason behind it at the time or not.
The healing process can be long for some and short for others. And it all depends on a number of situations. How ever long it takes you to feel what you would consider normal (the worlds standarts are stupid in my opinion) is how ever long it takes. I wish I could share with you how bad the 3 years after I left NTCC were for me. I had to keep pressing on and moving forward when so many times I wanted to give up.
Some may see counseling as a bad thing but I can say with the right person doing the counseling it can be a wonderful thing. As with everything there are people who should be and should not be in ever profession. I can't count on my fingers and toes how many medical doctors I went through before I found one that has a brain in his head. Same with counselors. My find is Christian ones who are trained biblically are the best. Also my doctor that I have now I find happens to be a Christian. It's funny how every doctor I have for what ever reason I need him or her is a Christian. There has got to be something behind that. They are all good doctors and I know God has somethign to do with it.
CM in response to your question "I wonder does anyone really believe in just God taking care of all situations. Illness,financial problems,ect. Or do you take your own actions."
(continued on another post since I am so stinking LONG WINDED!)
This is my take on this. God puts a desire in one's heart to do certain things before they are even born. Some people deviate from that and go other paths either because of life experiences or money (greed). Others go and do exactly what it is God has laid upon their heart to do. I do believe God puts the desire in people's hearts for certain jobs, rather it be the desire to be a doctor, nurse, counselor, friend, mother, father, etc. You understand what I am saying? So if you need a counselor more power to you. That person felt the desire for whatever reason to be a help to others. And I believe God put that desire there rather they realize it or not. I love helping people I love just listening to them. That is why I am going into the field of psychology. I am also being biblically trained. Because I want to do it right. With God on my side. I also love working with children and teens who are mentally and physically disabled. I have so much fun doing it. You would not believe. I have a real hard time understanding why some people treat those with mental and physical disabilities as diseases because their not diseases in my eyes. Their people that deserve to be treated with respect no matter what their circumstance. Same with you. You deserve to be treated with respect no matter what your circumstance. You are loved just like every other person on this earth is. Even if you do not know it, feel it, or want to acknowledge it.
T, I love your statement "Jesus is still real and we have to LEARN to trust him regardless of what man or religion has done to us, otherwise, what is there in this world, what is the purpose of life."
How true, how true.
Ok Guys and Gals, ya'll have got me crying. Not a bad thing I assure you! Would you understand me if I said the reason I am crying is because I have been there? When I hear stories of people going through the parts of the healing process that I have already been through that my heart just aches for you? Because Oh my God I totally understand and I just cry, my heart breaks, I wish I could just give you all a big hug, and I mean that in the sincerest way.
There are things I am not ready to talk about in reguards to what I have been through in the healing proces. But eventually I will. The mental crap I went through after leaving NTCC is enough to drive someone who hasn't been through NTCC insane let me tell you!
Anyways I need to go. I got up early so I could work on my final paper and I've been sitting on here typing my heart out (literally), normally I don't check email etc. soon as I wake up but not today! Now off to find me some coffee (hopefully people are still asleep in the other half of this house I don't want to be bothered quite yet).
Jeff I really appreciate you having this blog as I am sure and others have said they are as well. This is the type of "online" help I was looking for when I left NTCC. And I never found it until after I didn't need the help anymore. Most of the stuff I read was very negative and I know those people were and are hurting but there are those of use who hate to read things and see nothing but hate in what they read. If you know what I mean?
Well I am shutting up now!
God bless,
Angie
i think we just witnessed-
"caffiene counseling"
im just kidding Angie, great post!
t
This blog WAS set up to tell your personal horror stories of your time in ntcc. But, it also needs to be a place people can come and get help. If that means you need to vent, or cry, or whatever-- I'm all for it. It's very important that you find a way to get closure for being in ntcc. I found alot of my closure and healing through hooking up with old friends, and by telling my story. If anyone wants to read it, I have it listed under the topics on the right-side column- "Why I left ntcc".
CM,
Read Psalm 119, if you care to. Notice the recurring instances of the word meditate. The Bible says that David encouraged himself daily and there is a lot to be said about what we think about on a regular basis.
Philippians 4:8 says:
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
Please consider these things that I have posted. I am not being critical of you or anyone else. I realize that there are real abuses and people who take advantage of others in this world. There are some things we can do to keep our sanity and one of those things is to read and meditate on the Word of God. I'm not saying you don't do this.
I thought I would throw in my two cents since the claim has been made that NTCC ministers don't care. Well, here is one who does. My heart goes out to you CM, and I wish I could change the past, but I can't. We can only move forward from here.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister said...
I thought I would throw in my two cents since the claim has been made that NTCC ministers don't care. Well, here is one who does. My heart goes out to you CM, and I wish I could change the past, but I can't. We can only move forward from here.
Jeff said...
Sincerely, thank you.
You are a good guy Concerned Minister.
Jeff
Jeff,
I was thinking on these things this morning about my Ft. Riley experience. I remember people who went to our church, quite possibly on their last breath of hope. They heard a message preached at them or abused by holier than thou members. I know one guy who came out a couple of times, then committed suicide. All the Pastor could talk about was "How he rejected God." Sick! I know people make their own choices, but I can't help but wonder if the church helped or hurt that guy.
I remember in particular one member who came out, but struggled with his sexual identity. He wanted to do right, but was treated horribly by brothers in the home. He was called the f- word, mocked about his gestures. He came out one last time(or drove by the church) we were glad to see him and gave him a hug. The Rev. and brothers surrounded him after service talked to him very ugly about homosexuality. I am not saying the church was totally at fault, but they are not innocent either.
NS
Angie,
I have trouble reading and listening to your post's. When you start it off with ntcc jargon. You said,I may not want to hear what you have to say. Sorry,then I rear up and I am not as receptive. Or you said,keep on keeping on. Another ntcc jargon.
If your Opinion about us being predestined to our paths in life. Which I don't agree with. Since we are free moral agents. Why give us the able to make choice's. If God has already made the decision for us? I was in the military. And I intended to stay in for a career. ntcc took that away. But I am not looking at something else I know I enjoy and is a passion of mine. Nope,sorry don't go for that.
I also am not freaked out to see a therapist that is not in a church setting. Or one that is in a church setting. I would rather have one that is not going to keep feeding me Gods word,jargon. When you don't even know if that person is saved or just faking it. Yes,I do have trust issue's. You guys all quote God's word. But do you really truly believe in it. Do you take medicine for a headache,flu,go to the doctors when your sick. I guess your not trusting in God! Your seeking out help for those aliments. So why am I lacking faith. If I go see a therapist or get some anti-depressant medicine. And no I am not looking for a crutch. Or looking for a skapegoat excuse. It is real!
Again Angie,
Telling God how to do his job. ntcc jargon. I have never prayed to God. To tell him what to do. I have prayed so many time's to help others. Hoping some would get saved. God does what God wants to do. As he made a free moral agent. I am able to do for myself alot. I have never felt God in my daily life. I am not one to quote the Bible and act superspiritual. When i read some folks post. it sounds fake to me. Just my opinion.
I am one that would rather come out and be real.
CM
CM,
Ask your therapist if what you think about during the day makes a difference. I am sure they will agree that it does. There is nothing fake about what I am saying here, just sincerely trying to help.
-concerned minister NTCC
Concerned Minister,
It is not just a matter of controlling one's thoughts. If you have seen someone die or suffer horribly, it changes your brain in some people forever. You get a stress response, whether you want to or not.
My particular problem is with sleep. The PTSD causes a stress reaction so I don't go into REM sleep. So in essence I don't ever get a good night's rest. Praying, and thinking on scripture...helps during the day to a point, it doesn't seem to change the fact that I am in battle while I sleep.
Right now I take a medicine that prevents me from dreaming and now I sleep well...most of the time.
The whole point I am getting to is how NTCC controls every aspect of your life. They use psychology on their members believe it or not. If a Pastor tells you...do what you want to do brother. Then preaches against it in the pulpit, that is the power of suggestion.
Belle
**My own questions / responses will be the ones with the stars**
CM's post:
Angie,
I have trouble reading and listening to your post's. When you start it off with ntcc jargon. You said,I may not want to hear what you have to say. Sorry,then I rear up and I am not as receptive. Or you said,keep on keeping on. Another ntcc jargon.
** I don't know what NTCC 'jargon' is, but those common phrases are uttered everywhere CM.
So, next time you talk to your friend and she tells you to 'keep on keeping on' as a source of encouragement are you going to tell her 'that's NTCC talk'?
No matter what any of have been through, we have to keep on keeping on, if not for ourselves, for our family, for our friends, for Yahweh.
I want you to continue on living CM. Living with the hope that only Yahweh can give. **
If your Opinion about us being predestined to our paths in life. Which I don't agree with. Since we are free moral agents. Why give us the able to make choice's. If God has already made the decision for us? I was in the military. And I intended to stay in for a career. ntcc took that away.
**Why didn't you just re-join after leaving the church? How did NTCC take that away? You said we are free moral agents.**
But I am not looking at something else I know I enjoy and is a passion of mine. Nope,sorry don't go for that.
I also am not freaked out to see a therapist that is not in a church setting. Or one that is in a church setting. I would rather have one that is not going to keep feeding me Gods word,jargon. When you don't even know if that person is saved or just faking it.
**You can always find a therapist who is a Christian and before getting into your issues, ask them about their walk with Yah. You should be able to tell real quick if they are fake or real. I understand what you are saying though.**
Yes,I do have trust issue's. You guys all quote God's word. But do you really truly believe in it. Do you take medicine for a headache,flu,go to the doctors when your sick. I guess your not trusting in God!
**Even the people in the Bible went and seen physicians CM. Seeing doctors is not a sin.**
Your seeking out help for those aliments. So why am I lacking faith. If I go see a therapist or get some anti-depressant medicine. And no I am not looking for a crutch. Or looking for a skapegoat excuse. It is real!
**I believe you CM. It's just as real as cancer of the body. My friends husband is bi polar...it's 100% real and when he forgets his meds...he is not faking his actions at all. Our bodies are dying and decaying. No one is more Christian than another if they are on meds for a disease or not.**
Again Angie,
Telling God how to do his job. ntcc jargon.
**Not necessairly CM. We are all guilty of telling Yah how to run our lives. We all have plans for our lives and when they get ruined by an issue(s) or circumstances, we blame Yah, when in reality He allowed those things to happen to mold and shape us into His perfect will.
We are all guilty of putting Yahweh in the back seat in our lives. Then we realize that our way isn't really working as well as we thought it would and give the reigns back to Him.**
I have never prayed to God. To tell him what to do. I have prayed so many time's to help others. Hoping some would get saved. God does what God wants to do. As he made a free moral agent. I am able to do for myself alot. I have never felt God in my daily life.
**Oh CM, I am so sorry you have never felt His presence in your life. I will be praying for you.
Are you saved? I am just wondering because Christians are able to feel His presence in their daily lives.**
I am not one to quote the Bible and act superspiritual. When i read some folks post. it sounds fake to me. Just my opinion.
**Such is life on the computer. We can't see people's thoughts, body language, intentions.**
I am one that would rather come out and be real.
CM
Going to pray for you right now CM.
Hang in their girl!
Yah Bless You (((CM)))
~ Dawn
Concerned Minister,
what do you think are good and pure thoughts? I think of good thoughts during my day.
CM
The stark dichotomy in attitudes about seeking professional help for physiological and psychological afflictions is interesting. Most Christians won't think twice about a person getting medical treatment for, say, a kidney stone, or appendicitis, but when it comes to mental health, it's "trust God, brother," usually accompanied by some scripture verses (no offence, concerned minister; I'm sure you mean well). But isn't the brain just another organ? If one has a thyroid deficiency, he may need to take some hormones. If one has a brain imbalance, certain compounds have been demonstrated to help. Medications shouldn't be a first resort, and are often gratutitously prescribed, but it is certain that in some cases they result in vast improvement, and no one should be critical of those who need to use them. Similarly, psychotherapy can also help a person effectively integrate life experiences and should not be subject to a blanket stigma.
Basically, we need to do whatever we need to do to function in this fallen world. If prayer alone works for some, great. But CM's experience is different, and she is not alone there. Many people need to get help wherever it may be found, and if that requires professional intervention, they should get some.
This reminds me of Tom Cruise, who is a Scientologist, going of on the psychiatry profession. Brooke Shields smacked him down on that. Clinical depression or bipolar disorder isn't something a person can just "snap out" of, and generally gets worse if left untreated. I bet Andrea Yates' husband wishes now he'd have taken her to a shrink before she drowned their five children. But no, they were Christians, and were "believing God." Too bad it didn't work.
"I am just wondering because Christians are able to feel His presence in their daily lives."
How do you know this is true for everyone? It sound presumptuous to doubt a person's experience because it is different from yours. Our faith should never be influenced by feelings, one way or the other. If it is, can it really be called faith?
I just figured all Christians had the presence of Yah in their lives. Aren't they suppose too?
Vic,
No offense taken. Notice I didn't tell her not to see a therapist, she may need to. All I am saying is that the more you fill your mind with the Word of God, the better your thought patterns will be.
Everyone has to choose to do what they think is best and ultimately they will do what they think is best. That doesn't mean it is the best thing to do.
CM,
If our minds are constantly on God and His promises, it helps to guide our decisions in the best possible way. God is infinately smarter than we are and the Bible expresses the mind of God. If we get His mind in our mind, our thoughts will be different, our decisions will be better, and our attitudes will change. The more psychologists learn about the human mind, the more they understand that the Bible is right about the things I posted.
-concerned minister NTCC
Vic,
this is a serious question:
do you consider yourself a "born-again" christian?
or in other words "are you saved"
just curious
t
Why didn't you just re-join after leaving the church? How did NTCC take that away? You said we are free moral agents.**
Angie. I am medically disabled discharged from the military. My condition at that time. I could have stayed in . But I chose out to be the "keeper of the home". thinking I was wrong to even be in the military. 13 years later. Siacta nerve damage,both feet have the same condition and blubber from a sedated life. Plus two kids. Nope I don't think the military was going to want me. With a medical discharge,not eligible to even get back in.
So does that explain to you why I did not go and sign back up. Or even try and become a police officer.
CM
i must say that these conversations are leaving me with the feeling that i am much more on the "same page' as concerned minister
its really sad, i would expect that after people left ntcc they would grow exponentially in the lord, having been released from the bondage of ntcc
t
no judgement intended for you sensitive types
t
T,
I've talked to alot of people who have left ntcc, and the vast majority of them have gone on to be successful, happy people. Some stay in the ministry; some go on to be successful in business; some just go on to a much more fulfilling life. Not everyone stays a Christian, but that doesn't mean their lives are bad.
In my case, I have decided to not go to church anymore-- even though I believe in God. I've been pretty successful in business and am alot better off financially than when I was in ntcc. I'm still moral, ethical and a nice guy. Am I a Christian? Well, not by ntcc standards-- maybe not even by Bible. I don't claim to be a Christian anymore. But, for now, that is what I want, and I am alot happier being this way. Life has been great since leaving ntcc.
First of all T,where do you get asking Vic if he is saved or born again so called Christian. Soo many of those so called born again Christians are fake.
Concerned minister. Sorry but it is hard to listen to you. If your in the cult that did the damage to my brain. So when something comes out of your mouth. I know your funding there empire. Your reaching souls that fun there fancy lifestyle's. So how are you so heavenly minded. When your not doing just Gods will. Your doing rw will and Mike K. will....
If we get His mind in our mind
Where does it say God has a mind,a brain like we do.
CM
CM,
I was the one who asked that question...and yup, it explains it.
That's all I wanted to know. :)
Praying 4 U!
I think "T" should just stay away from this blog for awhile since he doesn't find it that appealing to his personal taste.
How about it "T"?
Since you can't seem to feel empathy for the people that write on this blog maybe you really need a therapist and tell you why is it that you can't seem to understand why people write here on this blog.
I think a normal person will feel empathy and not find fault with what a person is saying. It sounds to me that "T" still too much into the ntcc frame of mind.
Nobody is forcing "T" or "concerned minister" to come and read this blog so please if you can't take it just leave us alone and go ahead and start your own blog, the last I heard this is Chief's blog.
T,
I have grown since leaving NTCC. I am more fun to be with, my kids and my children's life have improved.
NTCC is shrouded in secrecy. There is a minister who takes meds for schizophrenia. I know of sisters in the org who take head meds, but it is done in secrecy. Lots of sisters took ephedra in its hey-day, in secret.
In this blog we are stripping away the secrets and being honest.
I am trying to warn people that they need to consider some things that are preached over the pulpit as not being all true.It actually can be detrimental.
Like I said I was having problems while in NTCC, but now I am taking a stand!
Belle
sorry about that Angie. when it was Dawn that asked the question. My bad.
CM
casey,
thank you for your answer, i appreciate it
cm,
where do i get off asking someone if they are a christian?
are you serious? i have the right to ask anybody that question, and the reason is, i just dont know, and if he is then he is my brother in the lord- dont pre-judge my motives
you appear to be very bitter, maybe that is what is pushing you down
you can be critical of everyone on here but god forbid that someone say anything to you, isnt that a double standard?
anyway, my motives were not judgemental in anyway toward vic
Belle,
i am very happy for you, may god continue to bless your life
t
oh, and anonymous,
your just a flat out coward whoever you are, what can you say to someone who doesnt have the guts to even give a 'fake' name
t
its really sad, i would expect that after people left ntcc they would grow exponentially in the lord, having been released from the bondage of ntcc
T said.
Just because a person leave's ntcc. Does that mean,poof. I am all better. Oh my,I left a cult. No damage to our self-esteem,decision making skills,attention span. Lets just all suck it up,move on. Ignoring any damage does not make it go away. You just brush it under the rug.
CM
CM, I have been saying "keep on keeping on" since before I ever attended NTCC so to me it is not in no way related to NTCC at all. I for one never heard anyone in NTCC say that. Not saying they don't but I started saying that when I was around the age of 10 when the church I attended started using it to encourage people to stick through their battles and to not give up. Which is what we should be doing. Because in all honesty rather you believe what I say or not the Devil wants you to give up and that is what he is drooling over for you to do.
I am not fake and I do not think you were saying I am. But just for refrence I have never pretended to be someone I am not or something I am not. I am 100% me. If people don't like me for who I am (NTCC included I could care less, and I do).
There is a differencec between God laying a desire on your heart and having a predestined path. I don't believe God has our path 100% laid out for us. What I do believe is he gives us each specific gifts and talents that have a whole lot to do with who we are. And we either allow or don't allow life experiences to affect us. I'm not saying NTCC did not affect me. But I am not going to let my experience with NTCC stop me from being who I want to be in God.
Think about this....God gave all these people gifts, wants, etc. If God had not wanted people to become doctors he would not have allowed for our brains to develope to the point of making medininces. There is absolutley nothing wrong with going to the doctor. And someone going to the doctor does not mean that they do not trust in God. The way I see it I'll go to the doctor for my medical conditions that I have had since birth until God heals me. And if he doesn't no big deal. I'm not going to sweat myself over it. There are bigger things in life to worry about then if my medical problems are going to be healed or not. I really at this point could care less if God heals me or not. My Medical issues are not a henderance in anything I want to do. So no big deal.
I also have no problem at all with counseling I have just found in my personal experience when seeking counseling a christian counselor can better counsel a person who has been through a cult experience, or had a bad church experience. It really is hard to put in to words. Honestly one thing I hope to accomplish when I am done with my schooling is to counsel those who have been through a cult experience. Why? Because I have been there so I can identify. Would you not want someone who has been there to help you? I personally think a person who has been there is better qualified to treat a person then a person who just went to school to learn the jargon and how to treat a person? Hun I have been through a lot of crap in my life and my experience with NTCC is just a small chapter in the book I could write on my life up until now. I did not choose the path of psychology for no reason. I've been through a lot of stuff. I want to help people who have been through hell and try to help them recover their life that they have lost. NTCC has caused a lot of people to loose not only their life but their mental health and physical health. Oh I had a lot of mental stuff and I still do deal with some of it from NTCC. I also suffered a lot of medical issues while in NTCC. And I do know it was because of the stress that was put on me in NTCC. But I am a stubborn person I can only take being pushed around for so long before I push back and that is what I am doing now.
( another long winded post continued on another post LOL)
personally i dont really want to be here anymore, it has totally lost its focus and now its just a bunch of whining and fighting between each other
we need to get back to fighting the actual enemy not each other. any topic ideas
how bout back to that 39 acres and whats happening with it right now??
I am in no way saying you don't need help. If the help you are getting is working that is great!
One peice of advice I will give that was recently given to me is... don't pray or wish for your old life back (before NTCC), pray or wish for a better life then you ever had.
And please keep in mind that not all churches are cults. A lot of the "Jargon" you say belongs to NTCC has been around longer then NTCC has been in exsistence.
I know you feel burnt by God but all this was allowed to happen for a reason. Someone might come along some day that has had the same or worse of an experience then you. Maybe your supposed to help them through it? Who knows. God does not allow anything unless he intends to use it.
I was in a car accident about 13 years ago that I should have died in. The car was literally smashed in to the middle of the car on the drivers side. I was seat belted in. I saw everything happen in slow motion. Would you care to explain how I got out of my seat belt (without it coming undone or tearing) and into the passengers seat on the other side of the car? The only thing I can think to do is give God the glory. Because the entire drivers side of the car was not even recognizable when the accident was all said and done. And I was not even hurt. Obviously God wants me around for a reason. I still haven't figured out the full reason but I know part of it is to help others.
We can't let our bad experiences (and I seriously could write a book on mine) control us. Get the help you need. I believe if a person needs help they should seek it instead of act like they are fine. I personally am glad you are getting help. You can only think of the possiblities of what might have happened had you not sought help. I went to counseling. I still go when I need it. I have gone to counseling a few different times in my life over a bunch of different reasons. The latest being NTCC. Had I not sought help I probably would have commited suicide and I am not going to lie about that. I still have a hard time trusting people. But I have my family. THeir about the only people I can trust even now. Most of the people I go to church with now I grew up with. So I know them. So I trust them. I consider them family also. But I fight day in and day out to not allow my past experiences to control me, to anger me and to make me bitter. because I know anger and bitterness are not good for your body, mind, or spirit. They can cause you some serious major health problems. Worse then what stress can cause you.
(ok this ended up being longer then I thought..One more post after this I promise)
What I am not going to argue is the presence of God. Because I feel it is a stupid thing to argue about. You can't really put it into words what the presense of God feels like and you really can not condemn or look down on someone because they say they have felt the presense of God. Each person walks their own path unique to them. If they have the presense of God with them that is awesome. If they don't then maybe they are in a valley. I personally have felt the presense of God and I feel it all the time. Does that mean I am a freak because someone else has not? No it does not. Does it mean that I am better then someone else that has not. NO! It does not! So please don't get all bent out of shape about the "presense of God" statement that Dawn made. Its a personal experience that is really hard to put into words. And if you haven't been there done that you can't really speak against or for it. So lets just leave it at that.
It has nothing to do with NTCC they never talked about feeling the presense of God in the first place.
As others said this is a place to discuss, expose, and help those who are either in NTCC or have left. Not to condemn them for their life before or after NTCC. Or to judge their experiences before or after NTCC.
Last I checked we were all individuals that all walked different paths with similar situations. That does not at all mean that we have to walk, talk, act, dress, breath, and live life the same way.
CONCERNED MINISTER, I want to say that I do appreciate what you have to say. I do not hold it against you that you remain in NTCC. I only pray that God has placed you there to help him to open the eyes of those who are doing wronge so that they can repent and go the right path or that in your own special unique way you are able to help one small group of people who choose to attend NTCC. More power to ya. I wish more people cared like you did in NTCC. If I were you I would request that you be kept at your current location so they don't send some screw ball in to mess up the people you are pastoring that is if your pastoring a church right now.
God bless,
Angie
Vic,
this is a serious question:
do you consider yourself a "born-again" christian?
or in other words "are you saved"
just curious
t
Now I'm curious. Did something I say conflict with your concept of what constitutes a believer? I'll answer your question, but I'd like you to clarify that first.
Gee T,
what does rw do all the time. Rw,believe's he can tell if someone is saved or not saved. Oh that person was never saved in the first place. AS IF HE KNOWS!!
No,I don't think ANYONE has the right to ask a person if there a born again Christian. That is between them and God. And no one else!
If am bitter. And your one that leave's ntcc and poof all is better. YEAH RIGHT!
I am not angry,hold grudges against ntcc. I am going to expose them! If you try to judge others. I will say something.
what does it have ANYTHING to do with being on this blog. If Vic is your so called brother in the Lord.
I guess I don't see it any of your bussiness. Since it is between him and God!
CM
cm,
i see your point, but first of all ntcc is NOT a cult, it is cultic
the difference being that cults do not have a relationship with the true living god.
most ntcc folks are i believe, truly saved and therefore have the good shepherd involved in there lives
that makes a huge difference
i am not meaning to sound unsympathetic but i really believe that Jesus is able to take care of his sheep
T,
For what it's worth, I don't think your posts were judging or condemning anyone. You were just asking questions and trying to give encouragement.
~ Dawn
Oh hey, on Dr. Phil this coming Monday it's going to be about mind control in cults. Looks like an interesting watch. :-)
no vic,
i am sincerely just curious
t
cm,
and how is it your business?
cm,
i think you need to slow down a little and think about what your saying, nobody is judging anybody's salvation, but simply asking a question.
relax, dont get so emotional
t
ANON,
it is not my bussiness. And it isn't anyone's bussiness.
CM
"It has nothing to do with NTCC they never talked about feeling the presense of God in the first place."
They did when I was in, although they were also careful to explain that "we don't go by feelings." But feeling the presence of God was a frequent topic, and I'd be surprised if that has changed.
sorry cm,
that was me who asked that question,
"how is it your busines?"
my point is,,,i have every right to ask vic a question, and it doesnt matter if you dont approve of the question
see my point
t
Angie,
nobody was pushing you around. Can retract the claws.
Like I said t.
rw judged us. and thought he knew if someone was a "brother in the Lord". So your sounding like him. Maybe someone is right . You still got alot of ntcc still in you.
CM
funny thing is i was never in ntcc.....i have family in ntcc
you need to understand that asking someone IF they are saved is totally different than telling wether someone is saved.
the former is a question, the latter is a judgement
i am not your enemy, take it easy
:))))
T, I had a permanent and transformative redemption experience when I was nineteen years old in the Army, before I ever heard of NTCC. I wasn't in a church, I was in a barracks room, and had been an atheist all my life. I know all about feelings, but am reluctant to impose them as a litmus test. My theological views have changed significantly over the years, but I still believe in atonement through faith in Christ's vicarious suffering and death on the cross, and I accept the gift of salvation on that basis. However, what goes on in churches today seems to be mostly unprofitable, so I forego regular participation as a matter of time stewardship.
It's OK, CM, I don't mind discussing my experience with anyone. I don't think T was trying to be obnoxious. And since he's never been in NTCC, it's not likely that he's got any left in him.
t,it is emotional,not emotions.
Sorry if I am jumping to conclusions. It is hard to stay calm. When your feeling like your being judged. told to keep our feelings to ourself. just because ntcc might use our words as verifying what they think happens to a person after leaving ntcc. I could care less what they think of my life. Why should anyone care what they think.
CM
We also know Yah is with us because we have those promises in the Word.
Deut. 31: 6 & 8 , Hebrew 13:5 and a few others which I can't think of at the moment as my mind is not cooperating.
We may not *feel* Him near, but we know by His Word that He is.
Praise His Glorious Name!!!! \o/
~ Dawn
T has never been in ntcc? what in the world is he here on this blog for. to share true stories about the life while in ntcc. Sorry I am confused now.
CM
t
His brother is in, and he's concerned (rightly).
TP blog was for everyone. I thought this blog is to share True stories of life in NTCC????
CM
cm,
thank you for being more rational
and i will explain what i am doing here"
my brother has been in ntcc for about 19 years, he led me to the lord about 15 years ago while on leave from the marine corp
i got saved and then the "trapping element" began and i was being guilted into moving out to
WA to attend bible school, to make a long story short, i was attending a Calvary Chapel at the time and realized what my brother was involved in and began to debate with him about ntcc and their belief system.
i have learned so much more since finding ntccxposed and tracy's blog and have become a regular on these blogs against ntcc, my brother knows where i stand and still talks to me on a daily basis
the reason i become passionate about the Bible and Jesus is because i am a christian and a bible teacher
so, like i said, i am not the enemy i am on your side
sincerely,
T
i do actually have a few stories!!!
but that is for another time
:))))
t
thanks for your answer vic, my views on God and the church have changed much as well over the years
t
thanks for explaining that t.
Semper Fi!
oooo raaaahhhh
is that my brother by any chance??
come on?
t
Anon (39 acres),
All that is going on is not bickering and fighting. People are letting their true voice be heard without judgment or condemnation unlike in NTCC.
Anon!
it is not a brother. a ladyleatherneck.
Semper Fi,
and for one that had to keep her mouth shut for many years. It is thrilling to share my thoughts,opinions,beliefs. Even if I put my foot in my mouth. I can apoligize and stop putting my blinders up. I still have trouble really listening without judging others.
and like most of us. If we feel that someone is judging us,ntcc like. We rare up and watch out!lol
To shut up anyone on here. would be just like ntcc. You can disagree and stay civil. I don't think any line was crossed in the past message's. Some are not used to actually talking and disagreeing.
CM
Hey not to get off subject...has anyone seen the internet reviews for NTCC Graham?
Anon!
"Hey not to get off subject...has anyone seen the internet reviews for NTCC Graham?"
Got a link? Maybe we can post some ourselves!
Wow,
I step away from this blog for 6 hours and everything goes to pot! lol. As I shared, this blog IS for stories-- the more the better. But it is also to vent if you need to. There's plenty of room for both. T and everyone else is welcome here.
I'll try to think up a new topic tomorrow........right after I go golfing! :)
Also, I like to check the "hit counter" to see where people are posting from, and I've noticed that Washington is mysteriously absent for the last week. Did ntcc tell people to stay away? There's nothing like suppression of the truth to help your cult along!
Vic Johanson said...
T, I had a permanent and transformative redemption experience when I was nineteen years old in the Army, before I ever heard of NTCC. I wasn't in a church, I was in a barracks room,
LTravis said…
Vic your salvation experience sounds identical to mine even the age. That is very interesting.
Things sure have changed in the ntcc. I think it would be in their best interest to apologize for all the wrong they have done. I had a former pastor contact me and apologize to me for things he had said. I think this came about because rw told the church that they can’t legislate righteousness anymore. I was wondering if anyone else was contacted concerning this matter. These folks can’t do anything on their own. That’s one of the reasons I left the last time. I’ve struggled spiritually for years because of things we were brainwashed with. They can’t even be a friend to you unless you see things their way, how Christ like is that?
concerned minister NTCC said…
I thought I would throw in my two cents since the claim has been made that NTCC ministers don't care. Well, here is one who does. My heart goes out to you CM, and I wish I could change the past, but I can't. We can only move forward from here.
******************
I say one thing you don’t seem to fit the cookie cutter mold that ntcc manufactures.
LTravis
Casey said...
Also, I like to check the "hit counter" to see where people are posting from, and I've noticed that Washington is mysteriously absent for the last week. Did ntcc tell people to stay away? There's nothing like suppression of the truth to help your cult along!
**********
Casey,
If you check the hit counter you should see Washington now that I’ve posted. I live about 15 minutes from Graham. Lol
LTravis
http://truthntcc.webs.com/
Does anyone else find this website
interesting?
steadfast sister,
do you trust that Rev and Rev Kekel are using your tithe money in a responsible manner?
do you think that the 39 acres that was taken (stolen) from the organization should be "gifted" back to the organization in order to help ministers who have dedicated their whole lives and have nothing?
do you feel that ntcc should develop some kind of retirement account ira system so ministers will have something to retire on when they grow old and have nothing?
just some food for thought?
oh, when you clean tanya's house do you ever have hints of jealousy? or thoughts of "why not me"
its ok, you should.....
sincerely,
t
T said…
do you think that the 39 acres that was taken (stolen) from the organization should be "gifted" back to the organization in order to help ministers who have dedicated their whole lives and have nothing?
do you feel that ntcc should develop some kind of retirement account ira system so ministers will have something to retire on when they grow old and have nothing?
T, the 39 acres never belonged to the ministers to begin with. It all belongs to the corporation. It is a business. The only way you will have anything is if you get it yourself. You could have your own business or work for someone else. These ministers should be paid a salary of some kind with some benefits. If you don’t take care of yourself no one else will. The sad part is when you’re young you don’t think about investing for your future. When you’re older and in your 30’s you better start investing everything you can. Young GI’s are gullible. Oh I almost forgot you shouldn’t be cleaning anyone’s house unless that’s your job. I would be ashamed to ask someone to clean my house for free. People that do that are lazy at the very least.
LTravis
Sorry T that question was for Stedfast my bad.
LTravis
lt,
my point is that as a member of ntcc and as a regular "tither" you can at least expect a little enumeration like all "corporations' do
only 2 families get rich in ntcc and we know who they are
t
T, said…
lt,
my point is that as a member of ntcc and as a regular "tither" you can at least expect a little enumeration like all "corporations' do
**************
Well T, I wouldn’t count on corporate America for anything. I happen to have one of those. I’m in business for one thing and I bet you can guess what it is. I do try to take care of employees but that’s not my primary goal. Generally folks are in business to make money don’t be disillusioned into thinking anyone will take care of you no matter how loyal you are. Get it in writing and have a good attorney.
LTravis
Stedfast Sister,
I really wish there was a legitimate avenue of review in NTCC, but there is not. Instead issues are broad brushed over with people saying "That was in the past." "And you people are just bitter." If the past is not corrected, it is doomed to repeat itself.
In the book of Isaiah the Word of God says:
"Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
There is very little opportunity for reasoning in NTCC or accountability of authority.
BN
http://truthntcc.webs.com/
Hard to get on this blog and hold my lunch! I try and read there so called testimonies. There is no orginal thought of there own. Brainwashed. The stuff they are sharing. It was pushed on me when I was stuck in ntcc. Spotless record,these men and women LOVE you,what a move of God,the reality is in ntcc,these men and women really care for there lowly members and ministers,...... I know many of us can counter that junk with the TRUTH! Your in the cult. Your brains are clouded and judgment is totally controlled. Oh,I go to Church because I want to. Not because someone is making you. Why don't you skip a few service's. And see what happens. Stop bringing people to Church. Sure rw or Mike K. still bashes people if they are not bringing so called lost souls to there mega Church.
Oh I liked the one that said,if you stay in ntcc and REBEL against there standards. Would not want to be in there shoes with that kind of rebellion. NONE OF THERE Standards or Policies are BIBLICAL!! RESEARCH the background to the scripture's that ntcc TWIST's and use's to there advantage!
A message to those still stuck in ntcc. To you that think I am bitter and angry. Because I share the TRUTH about the going's on in ntcc. NONE of your Standards or Policies are BIBLICAL. Research them,and get the background to those scripture's. Check the setting,that is very important.
I am not angry or bitter. But ntcc is going down. There needs to be more Blogs started. More resource's for those wanting to know what ntcc is all about. DO NOT GO THROUGH THOSE DOORS! EVER! the person inviting you out tells you,come on out and see what we are all about. The FAKE love will start. The FAKE caring will start. They don't want to be your friend. Just another body to warm a pew!
Ok,taking a big gulp. So I don't lose my lunch! If you go on that blog. Be careful. It can make you sick and lighheaded! What these people share is Fed TO THEM!They go to five service's,soul-winning. And watch out for few ministers that all look the same(parted,slicked hair) they are spying on you. Easedropping on conversation,making sure you don't record a service.
CM
For those of ya'll stuck in ntcc. Your Organization will only grow so big. RW Davis wants to keep it big enough to fund his HUGE mansion,rich lifestyle.No he did not earn that house!
But small enough to stay off the radar of the IRS and the FEDS!
Hello folks. I went out of town and took my family on a short vacation and we stayed in a beautiful motel on a lake. I took my little boy on a water slide at the water park that is part of the resort area that we stayed at. I don't want any NTCC people judging me. If Mike Kekels son can wear shorts to play basketball; which Mike said he did, than my son and I can wear shorts to go down the water slide thank you. I just thought I would throw that in there.
Now on to a different subject. I am just a blogger like everyone else here so I am going to give my opinion. Other than me asking that there be no cursing, I don't see myself as someone who makes mandates on this blog nor do I intend to. I stated that because I don't want anyone to misunderstand my next statement because folks are free to write whatever they want to here.
CM made a very personal statement that I immediately responded to. I suggested that no one judge her or give her any spiritual advise. That may not have been the way I phrased my statement but that is exactly what I was saying. I responded quickly because I hoped I could head off what I felt would wind up to be an inevitable confrontation between CM and a variety of people who feel that they are letting God down if they don't speak on his behalf.
Well I didn't successfully head it off but I sure did hit the nail on the head because that is exactly what happened. Quite a few people started preaching to CM. My question is does anyone feel that they led CM any closer to God? I don't and in fact I know you didn't. I may have lead her closer to God without saying a word about Christ. People; it is the love that you show not the preaching that you do. If anything you pushed her further away. You are not letting God down if you don't always speak on his behalf. Fifty percent of the time that Christians speak on Gods behalf they do more damage than good. I believe that, and in the NTCCs case they do more damage than good about 95% of the time.
Why do I think that? Number one because about 95% of the remaining NTCC ministers aren't Gods men to start with and the ones who are run out of things to preach about because they have entirely too many services each week. Thats right. The Bible doesn't say ANYWHERE that one must attend that many services a week. Not forsaking the assembling does not mean 5-6 services a week. RWD teaches that if you want enough money coming into your church, you need to hold all those services each week, and I have heard him say it with my own two ears, and no one can call me a liar because they are the liar if they say I am not telling the truth about what I heard RWD say.
I hear all this superspiritual rhetoric and it makes me feel like folks are fake. I could give specific examples but I am not trying to call out anyone in particular; I'm stating my feelings. CM has clearly stated that she does not consider herself spiritual, and that can be clearly understood by the statement that she made.
So to all the spiritual folks who have a direct line to the throne room of God and who FEEL God in their lives and who categorically knows that if THEY pray to God he will answer:
Ask God to heal CM and it will be done because if you have the faith of a grain of mustard seed all you have to do is ask and CM will be healed; right?
Here is proof; Bible: Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
So someone who is a believer needs to go lay hands on CM and she SHALL recover. Don't give me this stuff about CM's faith because Mark 16:17 didn't say a word about the faith of the individual being healed. I know there are examples in the gospels of folks being healed according to their faith but that is not what is written in Mark 16:17. Jesus said these signs SHALL, SHALL, SHALL, SHALL, follow them that believe!!!!!!!!!
End of part one.
JEFF
Part 2: Very short!
Now I just stirred up the pot. Surely spiritual folks love people? Surely they would love to see sick people healed? Lets go to a hospital and I want to see some spiritual godly person lay hands on some seriously sick folks because the bible say they SHALL, SHALL, SHALL recover. When are we going because I want to watch?
Think about it what I am saying. Now; how far off is CM's faith? Probably no further off than anyone else who calls them self a Christian. I learned a long time ago that my faith wasn't as great as I though it was. I learned that the night my Father died and my prayers didn't make him recover, and I didn't even get to make it to the hospital in time to see him take his last breath.
Jeff
CM,
That blog WILL make you lose your lunch. I saw it a couple of years ago. The ironic thing is-- there are people who posted glowing reports of how wonderful ntcc is, and now are no longer with ntcc. I've talked to one individual who is totally embarassed he wrote what he did, and now despises ntcc. But you know how it is...when you're drinking the koolade....ntcc is wonderfulllll. lol
praise God they were converted!!!
i appreciate your comments CM!!
God bless you!! (christianese aside)
t
LOL! t: that was funny. I still have a sense of humor. Believe it or not I am not sensitive, just real. I know my post was somewhat inflammatory so I expect to get a reprisal. This is an open blog so I expect no less. Like I always say. NTCC folks make no provisions for reprisals and that is why Mike Kekels blog is moderated and this one is not.
Power to the people!!!!!!
Jeff
CM,
Feel free to call me...Jeff has my number!
NS
Jeff,
I was thinking upon these things when I was reading my Bible. Stewardship! NTCC frequently tells its members to be good stewards with the things that God gives them. For an example we were instructed not to give money to bums on the street, because there was a question to were the money was going. However, the financial secrecy that surrounds NTCC does not leave the room for the church member to practice good stewardship. Am I right or wrong?
Nah,Jeff no one pushed me any further from God. I guess I don't feel close to God. And would like to get what others have. When they say God is with them,think on God all day,God answers there prayers,faith.
I love God,enjoy going to Church. Been going since we left ntcc. Until recently with my marriage troubles. We all stopped and took a break. But I can only miss a few weeks and I am ready to go to Church on Sunday AM. I am not attending a evening service. And a mid-week Bible study is something I do enjoy. I crave to learn Gods word. Ntcc taught me there beliefs. I want to know Gods word and how he wants me to live. But to have that closeness and connection with God. I guess I do not have that,never have. How do I get that?
When i hear people talk what I consider churchy talk. It does sound fake to me. Do they really feel God. Or do they just think they do.
CM
CM said...
And would like to get what others have. When they say God is with them,think on God all day,God answers there prayers,faith.
Jeff said...
I don't want what others have, because 99% of the time I'm convinced their fake. That is why I talked about healing. I have seen so many believers talk about their faith but I've yet to see enough faith in one of those ministers or church members to heal people!!! The Bible talked about it, so why aren't modern day Christians given the gift of healing by GOD?
1Cor 12:29-30. Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues?
How come I don't even see any news on the internet or in a news paper where someone goes into a hospital to heal a few people like Jesus did or the Apostles? If everyone has so much faith how come NTCC folks don't do it or people on this blog who have so much faith? I'm not talking about a headache or my big toe hurts, or I have already been to the hospital and been given medication and after I get better the praying people take credit for sickness going away.
To all you NTCC healers like Ashmore and Olson: Go down to Dothan AL and heal Sis Solomon!!! Have her come up to the front of the church and lay hands on her and I want to be there to personally to see that woman get fixed because you can tell that she has a physical disability. I'm not talking about a headache here, I'm talking about a crippling disability that we all can see. I want to see some real healing, not this phony baloney stuff that comes from all these people with so called great faith.
Jeff
Anonymous said...
However, the financial secrecy that surrounds NTCC does not leave the room for the church member to practice good stewardship. Am I right or wrong?
Jeff...
You are exactly right. They are worried about 5 dollars to a bum but what about $20,000 a year to a private academy for Grant when there are so many broke folks in the NTCC? Great point. I will probably start a thread with it.
Jeff.
CM said...
Nah,Jeff no one pushed me any further from God. I guess I don't feel close to God. And would like to get what others have. When they say God is with them,think on God all day,God answers there prayers,faith.
Jeff said...
But guess what happens if you don't get what others supposedly have? You go further from God because your faith becomes even worse, and then you begin to question everything that happens in your life because you want to know why everyone else has something that you can't seem to get.
The funny thing is, when you bring up your dilemma in conversation, everyone will give you a different answer, but every answer will point toward you doing something wrong, or having sin in your life, and that is why you can't get any closer to God. It's called laying on a GUILT TRIP!!!
And what will that do? Mess up your conscience even more, which will drive you even further from God. You may not think so, but it has already happened and I can tell by your first statement. You completely questioned God because you think that everyone else has something that you haven't been able to get.
You said your prayers didn't get answered; right? How do you know for sure that anyone else's did? That is why I use healing and miracles as a litmus test. How did people know who was the real servant of God? The prophets of Baal or Elijah? A miracle! The same type thing happened in the New Testament all through out the book of Acts. Who cares what anyone else says they have. I don't base my faith on what anyone else has because half the time what someone else has is fake any why, and I have seen it first hand. The Bible teaches that love is more important that any of that stuff and that is why I know the NTCC is fake because love doesn't exist very often in the NTCC. The NTCC is a "be ye warmed and filled" church and they show very little love.
It's a big psychological manipulative practice. The NTCC uses it all the time on folks who are praying for the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Every time without fail that someone in the NTCC prays for the Holy Ghost they get told that there must be sin in their life when their prayer supposedly doesn't get answered. So what happens? They get filled with guilt and their conscience gets messed up and their faith dwindles and ultimately they get pushed further away from God. They start to question their very own salvation and the NTCC pastor does the same?
I don't call that getting any closer to God I call it getting pushed further away.
Jeff
here's some good stuff to listen to if you aren't able to make it out.
http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/Turning_Point/archives.asp
CM ~
Have you considered trying to find a home church?
It would be less 'churchy' and more of an intimate setting since normally there aren't that many people.
Many people get burnt out on 'church' and start home churching, which helps them recharge their batteries so to speak. :)
Been praying for you...for Jeff...Casey... anyone else need prayer, I can add you to my list next to me? :-)
Can a former NTCC'r explain to those of us who have never been in how/what pastors are paid? I'm not talking about RW and Kekel - we all now how they make their money. But just a regular pastor working in a church. Are they paid salary? Is it commission based off of the congregation tithes?
K
Anonymous,
Civilian Pastors get a percentage of the 'take' after all the bills are paid. And have to keep a 'floor' of $2,000 in the general fund. A 'floor' is a minimum amount that must be kept in the general fund at all times, after the bills are paid, before the Pastor can get any money. So the Pastor may need more than $4,000 each month in tithe and offerings before he can begin to 'get some.' This changes from time to time, and may vary from church to church.
I personally knew of one work that had bills of about $5,000 each month, so they needed more than that to get any 'salary.' Needless to say, that Pastor was working a full time job, and paying Church bills out of his own pocket, and sending money to Graham, and attending conferences, etc. Yes, the headquarters knew.
Servicemen's Home Directors get $150 per week.
This is the reason most NTCC Pastors work some sort of secular job, and never have any money. Not because they are spendthrifts.
Like I said above, the 'policy' changes from time to time, and from church to church--and may depend on what mood Pastor Davis is in that month, and/or if he 'likes' you or not--so someone may have a different take on this.
pdq
Pastors' pay policy has changed over the years. When we were involved, I never got a dime myself, and often paid church expenses out of my secular income (especially at first). Back then, servicemen's directors got a weekly "draw" which amounted to some pittance of around $500 a month. But in the beginning, it was an ironclad policy that all tithes belonged to the local pastor. Of course, he was expected to make sure the church bills were paid, so often this practice was meaningless, but I surmise that once a few pastors managed to slave-drive their churches into productivity, RW couldn't help but cast his covetous eyes on this juicy income stream too, and the whole "escrow" scheme was devised. I never even heard of that when I was in, although we were required to deposit all building and evangelistic fund collections with the HQ for their plundering pleasure.
Vic, you are correct,
A preacher I once worked for with regards to the "books" stated to me that he took $500 for take home pay after all the expenses are payed.
This is generally right below or right at poverty level, 24K a month, a little over what is paid for Grant to attend private high school for a year.
MLJ
24K a YEAR, not month, I stand corrected.
MLJ
Servicemen's Home Directors get a lot of intangibles not mentioned as well, as well as groceries given to them by church members.
AND free offerings. Man, if I was a preacher I would be gritting my teeth.
Of course, he was expected to make sure the church bills were paid, so often this practice was meaningless, but I surmise that once a few pastors managed to slave-drive their churches into productivity, RW couldn't help but cast his covetous eyes on this juicy income stream..."
sounds like a pyramid scheme!
"sounds like a pyramid scheme!"
Yeah, replete with RW driving the pyramid builders just like an ancient Pharaoh.
I just some how stumbled across this page on the internet, wow, and low and behold, a man named Johnson is talking smack about me.
"It was all negative, sorry Dawn. The baby shower for my wife? The so called sisters give her USED items. Junk. Menendez gives her baby shoes that were dirty and already worn. I threw all that junk away."
You can't even spell my previous last name correctly, and I never gave any one "junk" You have no business disrespecting someone to that degree, I never hurt you or said anything about you. I was not ever and still am not a snob. I was 19 at the time, and had no money, I did the best I could. For the birth of your daughter I even gave you a brand new, baby bassinet worth $50 or $60. So if you were to ungrateful to accept a gift from a well meaning heart, and think of it as junk then that was your loss. You were such a sweet family, but I can see you didn't care for to many people. I was still a kid in a lot of ways, and I hadn't been saved many years, but I know I never did anything to offend your family or hurt you. And the fact I got divorced is none of your concern. You don't have the entire story, you don't know what I went through, and you can't even spell my last name right. You don't know how many children I even have. You don't know me, and you never did. Some people especially when they start out in life don't have a lot of money. I was thankful for things I were given, I could care less if they were gently used, I had nothing. So for me to give to your family was a scarifice, and you had no clue my financial standings. So you sir are a hypocrite in the things you write and say about me. You sir are asuming just because folks are military they are rolling in the cash. I wasn't in my thirties like you and your wife, in fact I was right out of high school. So don't you ever post any trash on your stupid blog about me again. Or I will contact a lawyer. And P.S. your info on me is about 6 or 7 years out of date. I am not doing this via any church, I'm doing this because you messed with my name and my family. This blog is a bunch of trash, if it was true, you'd have your facts straight, and also you might be able to get peoples last names correct. Dawn please don't tell these freaks anything else about me. Its so none of their business. So keep my name off your stupid blog. And if you want to know the real story, maybe ask me sometime, don't just post trash about me.
What really happened, since some folks talked about me on here w/o my knowledge, and most of what was said is here say, I thought I would let Johnson know why the "Menendez Family" was no longer together. Well lets make a long story short, my ex drank lots of alcohol, and spent $700 or more a night in strip clubs, he had been doing this since he was in Korea. He had bad debt when I married him. I wasn't saved and NTCC had no part in my marriage decision. He probably never really was saved, it was just a time filling gap for him. Me I got saved. Well he came back from Korea, and spent every dime we had, we never had money, I barely had $20 a week for food and baby diapers. He cheated on me with 5 different chicks, he never wanted to look at me or touch me. He ignored his children, and became abusive toward me. He punched so many holes in the walls, where I had run away or ducked in order to avoid being hit. One time it was so bad I was trying to call the church for help, he broke the phone. I ran down the street with my 2 girls in the middle of the night, to NTCC, as I was running I was carrying my 6 month old baby girl, and my 2 year old daughter was holding my hand, he grabbed the back of my dress and yanked me down. I fell holding the baby, the baby didn't get hurt, but my 2 year old slammed her head on the concrete steps at our house. I got away running down the road with 2 children crying. I ran fast as I could, and made it to the NTCC, and they were there for me. I went through a divorce and life sucked. But NTCC was there for me. The people loved me and helped so much. I went from a horrible situation and made it through, it was the grace of God. I'm saying my experience for over 8 years, the people have been there, and I don't know where I would have been without their support. I never really told folks my story, see they just seen a happy sister sitting in a pew. My ex had issues most of our marriage and when I was married to him we never had money. I never told anyone. So while you Johnson were sitting around finding fault with me, and things that I gave you, you had no clue what I was dealing with. And I know for a fact I gave you really nice things, a lot were brand new I bought from JcPenney's which is an awesome store. I never called you or your wife trash, quite the contrary I loved you all so much, and still think of you. I was just trying to be a blessing, but you didn't care. You bought a 98 Nissian Alitma, so it was a used car right. So you didn't find yourself worty enough to have a new car? That is the logic you use when you say everyone got you used stuff. Maybe instead of ranting on here, you should think about other people. I always have and always will think about other people. You had no clue what my life was like, so hey I'm not gonna hold it against you. If you don't wanna go to NTCC, fine great, it wasn't for you. But I know what I've been through and where I stand, and I've never regreted my decision to serve the Lord in and stay grounded in the church I started out with. NTCC had nothing to do with my divorce, it was because I was young, and married some dude I meant at a club and married after only 2 months.
It was my inexperience in life, so like I said in the other post. Don't say things about me unless you know. Since you don't know, then just don't put nothing else on here about me. Cause you don't attack ones character and not expect some sort of a responce. I'm happy, I love my family I have a beautiful family whom, I am devoted to. And I'm so thankful God gave me this second chance at life. And before you bash a Reverend, remember David would not touch Saul, even though he tired to kill him and was not right with God, because it was God's annointed. And one of the Rev. you bashed is an awesome man, when my grandmother passed away a couple years ago, they came to the funeral. He wasn't even in JC anymore, so if you cared so much about folks, where were you in ones time of need? I know who was there for me, and who wasn't. I think that is enough said.
your page sucks!
Response Bro. Johnson?
TWO SIDES TO EVERY STORY--
Dee,
I saw your posts the other day when they were in the recent comments section.
I'm glad you came here and gave your side of the story.
I'm also glad that ntcc was there for you.
I hope God continues a healing work in your life.
I have found that there are excellent people within the ntcc.
The leadership, however, seems to be truly lacking in the Christian character department--based on what I've seen, experienced, and read from other people.
The Bible teaches that in a great house there are many vessels, some unto honor, some unto dishonor. So there will be good and bad in any large group.
Again, I'm glad somebody was there for you when you needed it.
And I'm glad you came here and shared your story.
It is a good reminder that every story has two sides.
Peace.
Angela
P.S. I haven't noticed Bro Johnson posting for some time, so I don't think he is trying to ignore you. He seems to take breaks from the blog.
Hey Jeff,
I commend you for actually allowing a positive comment about "Life in the NTCC"
I wonder if you have the guts to actually make a thread out of the comments Dee made concerning Johnson and others talking trash about people and not having the whole story.
I wonder how many other threads and comments posted in this blog are based in the same Hearsay and false accusations?
If you don't post this comment, I know why. I hope at lease you read it for yourself.
--A guy who found God in NTCC
FOUND GOD IN ntcc, LEAVE GOD TO KEEP ntcc
Ange says,
Here's another one of those ntcc-loyalist comments taking potshots at folks from the cover of anonymity. I'll address the comments in ALL CAPS:
Anonymous said...
Hey Jeff,
I commend you for actually allowing a positive comment about "Life in the NTCC"
ANGE SAYS: YOUR 'COMMENDATION' IS WORTHLESS. MANY EX-ntcc-ERS HAVE STATED THAT THERE ARE MANY GOOD PEOPLE STUCK IN ntcc.
SADLY THESE SAME GOOD PEOPLE ARE THE ONE'S WHO DO THE WORK, LIKE HELPING DEE, AND GET NO REWARD OR CREDIT IT FOR IT.
SADLY, THEY ARE THE 'ENABLERS' AND 'VICTIMS' IN A CO-DEPENDENT ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ntcc 'manipulators' AND 'abusers'.
AND AS ANY PROFESSIONAL WHO DEALS WITH ABUSE-VICTIM COUNSELING WILL TELL YOU, THESE 'ENABLERS' AND 'VICTIMS' OFTEN COME OUT IN SUPPORT OF THEIR 'MANIPULATORS' AND 'ABUSERS'.
JUST ASK ANY COP. THEY HATE DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALLS BECAUSE THE VICTIM OFTEN ATTACKS THEM WHEN THEY TRY TO ARREST THE VICTIMS' ABUSER!--ANGE
I wonder if you have the guts to actually make a thread out of the comments Dee made concerning Johnson ...
ANGE SAYS: SEE HOW QUICKLY THIS TWO-FACED SHIFTING-SAND DOUBLE-TALKER MOVES FROM A WORTHLESS 'COMMENDATION' TO A GUTLESS CHALLENGE TO POST SOMETHING ALREADY POSTED?
THE WAY THIS POSTER TALKS OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF HIS MOUTH HE SOUNDS LIKE kekel.--ANGE
and others talking trash about people and not having the whole story.
ANGE SAYS: YOU MEAN JUST LIKE THE TRASH OTHERS TALKED ABOUT ANGELA, NOT HAVING THE WHOLE STORY?--ANGE
I wonder how many other threads and comments posted in this blog are based in the same Hearsay and false accusations?
ANGE SAYS: I WONDER HOW MANY MORE TIMES kekel AND his followers WILL BASE THEIR COMMENTS AND 'PREACHING' ON HERESY AND FALSE ACCUSATIONS?--ANGE
If you don't post this comment, I know why.
ANGE SAYS--
1-COZ IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO, YOU ARE GOING TO "SPLIT HELL WIDE OPEN!"
2-COZ IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO, IT'S BECAUSE my MANIPULATIVE TACTICS HAVEN'T WORKED.
3-COZ IF YOU DON'T DO WHAT I TELL YOU TO DO, i AM GOING TO TAKE MY BALL AND GO HOME! WAHHHN! WAHHN!--ANGE
I hope at lease you read it for yourself.
ANGE SAYS: WRIGHT BACK AT YA.
AND WHEN YOU'RE DONE READING THIS, PUT IT IN YOUR FUNK AND WAGNALLS AND SMOKE IT!
http://www.narcissisticabuse.com/characteristics.html
BTW: JEFF MADE IT CLEAR ANYONE COULD POST THEIR EXPERIENCES. HE IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR HOW BRO JOHNSON VIEWED THINGS.
JEFF-THANKS FOR GIVING EVERYONE A VOICE, SOMETHING ntcc WON'T 'ALLOW' OTHERS.
AND 'ALLOW' IS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE ABUSERS' CODE-PHRASE HANDBOOK...--ANGE
--A guy who found God in NTCC
ANGE SAYS: A GUY WHO SAYS he FOUND GOD IN ntcc.
1--WELL, GOD WASN'T LOST. LAST I CHECKED, GOD IS EVERYWHERE.
2--THIS GUY SAYS he FOUND GOD IN ntcc BUT BE SURE, IF he REMAINS IN ntcc, ntcc WILL BE his god; AND SO he WILL LEAVE GOD TO KEEP ntcc...
Angela
Have a nice day. Or GSYH, AS 'mr' kekel is so fond of saying... ;-*
Jeff,
Not saying all, but most people from this blog speak from 1st hand personal experience. It is easy for some people to broad-brush this blog as hearsay or say people are bitter. Actually it is more of a cop-out.
What I am saying NTCCers for an example if one-tenth of this blog is word for word true, isn't there still cause for alarm or at least a raised eyebrow. Particularly the escrow situation, which no one from the NTCC side has attempted to explain or examine.
The Bible calls us to be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. (Matthew 10:16) This world is still in its corrupted state. Just because someone says it over the pulpit(or insinuates)or even posts it on a blog does not mean you should not examine it for yourself. In fact God commands you to do so!(1 Thessalonians 5:21)
I lived in the Soldier's home (a house that was rented at that time) with Rev Ankenbauer and his wife along with other soldiers from Fort Riley in late 1995 and 1996. At that time, they were building the current Soldiers home. Another soldier from my unit (at the time, 4/1 FA, 3rd Bde, 1st Armored Div) had some pews from his church they needed to sell. I asked Rev Ankenbauer if we could purchase the pews. He made contact with Graham WA, they said no. My fellow soldier then stated they would give us the pews. Again, Rev Ankenbauer made contact with Washington, they said the church could not pay for a rental truck to pick up the pews. I finally told Rev Ankenbauer that I would pay for the rental truck if another soldier in the home would go in 1/2 of the costs. Rev Ankenbauer finally got approval for that. It seemed that the local pastor had ABSOLUTELY NO SAY in the day to day aspects of the local church. I finally left NTCC in late 1996 due to the fact that Rev Ankenbauer mocked some of the practices of another pentecostal denomination. Some of the other soldiers at that time living in the soldiers home were: Demetrius Lurry, Angel, and Tracy Michael McBrayer (Mike left the Army in 1996 to go to bible college at Graham WA)
Anon,
Thanks for the info on the doings at this church. Sounds like it left a lasting negative impression on you.
Did you know Rev. Ankenbauer is son-in-law to Rev. Jim. L. Johnson, a long time NTCC Board Member?
Even so, everything a NTCC minister does has to be cleared by headquarters.
Notice how they held out until you ended up funding all (except the one half of the truck rental that another GI or church member paid)?
That is typical of NTCC.
GI's are gold mines to the greedy people who run this corrupt organization. Their name says church. But their BOSS teaches them it is a BUSINESS.
You were smart to leave. Wish you hadn't been pulled in it all! But I'm thankful that you shared this story and would like to know any others you want to share!!
"I lived in the Soldier's home (a house that was rented at that time) with Rev Ankenbauer and his wife along with other soldiers from Fort Riley in late 1995 and 1996."
The local church was made to pay for everything, or even pay back the org. You know that van the Ankenbauers picked up at the dealership? The org supposedly bought it outright, and the church had to pay them back.
I remember some of the free offerings I gave to the church to bless the Pastor. Little did I know the org. was getting their cut. It really burns me to think about it!
We probably know each other Anonymous. I was 'in" the home around the same dates you were.
Anon!
Hi all. Just out of curiosity, what was generally thought as to the reason why the lead singer of the quartet left NTCC? That was me. I left during the Christmas break of 2001 for reasons I never disclosed to anyone but a few. I am just curious how it was perceived or misconstued. I fear the worst but can find no fault as I left many roads to speculation. I have been reading this blog and am happy to say I haven't been mentioned for good or worse. Things are great with me and God has shown abundant grace in giving me a new life of joy, power and happiness in Him. I have at last figured out who I am In Christ and am growing where I had not imagined to be blessed in the knowledge of the Lord. Thanks be to God!
Hello everyone. My name is Rev. Bellamy. I don't know if this blog is still going. I have been reading a lot of things. I would like to comment on a post from Brother Johnson and Sister Laqueshia Jeffries.
I will begin by saying hello to them and would like to thank them for their comments back in 2009. I agree with Bro. Johnson, when he said I could not preach. (I have thought about those times and they have made me laugh, because of things I said or stumbled over.) I remember preaching so fast that it sounded like a chainsaw. As far as being ready to preach or pastor, it takes time to learn to preach and how to follow God. I do a better job of it now, but there are still plenty of times when I don't get it right. I appologize if I offended you by teasing you about clapping or anything else. It was in fun, not to put you down in any way. Remember I use to make fun of my own singing and still do. I can't sing.
As far as my wife is concerned she has become a better singer and piano player, but there is room for improvement.
I agree that the schedule at Junction City was ridiculous. When I preached about works not defining our salvation I meant it. I believe I was misunderstood by Quesha when I said we do have responsibilities or something to that effect. I was saying that we don't want to neglect them, but at the same time not feel that this is what determines our salvation. Many people came to me and told me that they thought they weren't saved, because they were not working enough, and I would explain to them that we are not saved by works. There are people that "work" a lot, because they feel guilty of the sin that they are living in.
I am careful not to say God told me anything, because God has never spoke to me. I have said that I believe God dealt with me about something, but again I would always tell the person to pray and see what God wants them to do.
If I have wronged anyone I ask for your forgiveness. It was not on purpose. I would ask that all of you pray for me. I am still part of NTCC and though many people have grouped everyone in the same class, we are not all the same nor do we think the same. I acknowledge my mistakes and try to take an honest look at my life and ministry. And make the proper adjustments. "If every preacher waited until they were perfect to become a preacher then there would be NO preachers!" The Bible shows us the mistakes that Peter and the rest of the apostles, Paul, John Mark made. Not to mention Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc... I think you get the picture. God bless and I look forward to hearing from you.
Thanks, Bro. Bellamy
If anyone wants to contact me I can be reached at ebb702@yahoo.com.
Again I am sincere when I say that I apologize if I offended or hurt anyone. It was not and is not my intent. I acknowledge my mistakes and realize that on many occasions I was over zealous to the point of being ridiculous, but remember many people in the Bible were(Corithians) and they learned better. I have learned from many of my mistakes and will make them right as much as I can. If you would like to talk to me email me and I will give you my phone number or look me up on Facebook.
I will not answer for what someone else did. I don't know what happened and will not justify anyone.
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