The NTCC Is So Hypocritical

Someone from the NTCC (no doubt a minister) had come on this blog and attempted to put me down because I previously sold new Toyota's for a living. The individual made it clear that (auto sales) is commonly understood by the NTCC to be a dishonorable profession. LD Jones told me right before service one evening that a Christian had no business selling cars because that is what I was doing at the time. Bro. Bentley told me on one occasion that NTCC ministers were not authorized to serve in any sales positions and he made it clear that RWD thought such professions to be dishonorable. RWD took a crack at car salesmen right here in Columbus during a church service and his pastors were up front laughing because they knew that I was a salesman, and I was sitting in the back. Well I'm getting ready to have the last laugh but unfortunately what I'm getting ready to write is actually not funny at all.

Lo and behold, just today, I saw an individual right here in Columbus, Georgia who I'd previously known from the NTCC. We went to church together. He was driving an older model Toyota Camry. Guess who sold it to him? The local NTCC pastor. Of course that is actually no big deal, but it is either wrong to sell cars or it's not. Not only that, the guy told me about how much he is spending on the car and he is paying his pastor approximately two times what the car is actually worth. That's right, the brother got anything but a good deal and I know because I previously sold cars for a living. Apparently the brother had to take out some kind of loan which didn't help matters. The pastor had purchased the car and he decided not to keep it according to the brother.

Let's assume the pastor paid two or three times what the car is actually worth when he bought it. If that was the case should the brother pay at least twice what the car is worth just so the pastor could get his money back? The brother that I'm talking about has virtually NO experience buying cars anyway and I know that for a fact. The dude just got his license. Let's assume the pastor paid half or one third what the brother is paying for the car. That would mean the brother is being knocked in the head. That's what it is called when a dealer makes a whole bunch of gross profit on a vehicle sale. Which ever the case the brother is not getting a good deal at all but to the contrary. Used cars have a lot of mark up above and beyond what the car is actually worth and this is especially the case on less expensive cars between $1000 and $5000. For example it is a bad deal if you pay $7000 for a car that books for $3500. For the record these figures are not what the brother paid but I just used them as examples. I stayed away from used cars for that very reason. We regularly showed folks what the book value was on vehicles that they were trading. The brother should have been able to get the car for not one dime more than half of what he said he is paying for it and actually less than half if you really look at the book value which is what I just looked at this evening. If there is any doubt in anyones mind that I know what I'm talking about, I looked in the brothers window and quite clearly saw the odometer which allowed me to pull up the book value this evening. In my book the brother got took. How did you like that rhyme?

I bought a car for less than $1000 and I sold it to a brother for "EXACTLY WHAT I PAID FOR IT". I got a great deal on it and I passed the savings to the brother. He is still driving it and has been for about 2 years. It was also an older Toyota Camry so it should last for about 10 more years at least if he takes care of it. However in this case the pastor either got a sorry deal and passed his loss on to the brother or he is simply knocking the brother in the head!!!! "ONE OR THE OTHER".

So LDJ and RWD, I don't want to hear your garbage about car salesmen because the buys that I gave my customers were a whole lot better than the one that "YOUR" pastor gave one of his church members. You guys are sorry. You NTCC ministers need to stay out of the car selling business and leave it to trained, conscientious professionals like me who happen to know and care enough to truly take care of people and especially those who are of the household of faith.

Gal 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

Did you forget to teach that one in your so called Bible college?

Jeff

P.S. I could give numerical specifics concerning what the brother told me he is paying, and my findings about the book value, but that is the guys private business so you'll just have to take my word for it. This whole practice of pastors selling their church members cars has stink written all over it anyway. It's just another example of the Shepard fleecing the sheep. Buy an old car and sell it to one of your church members. This isn't the first time I've heard of NTCC pastors selling their church members old used cars. LDJ and RWD just needed to keep their mouth shut about this auto sales issue and it wouldn't be an issue. Just another example of an NTCC flip flop.

Don't Steal Your Kids Childhood, The Kekels Certainly Didn't Steal Their Kids Childhood!

This blog can be crazy sometimes. It causes me to give certain subjects entirely too much thought.

What I'm talking about here is the subject that we have been recently discussing throughout the previous thread; "the Kekels". I recently expressed my feelings about GK and how we should handle that subject. Well last night when I went to bed, I briefly (right before I went to sleep) gave the subject a little more thought.

This is an ever significant subject due to the fact that many of us were brainwashed and or psychologically manipulated into essentially stealing our kids childhood. We were taught that the only focus for our children should be that they serve GAWD throughout their entire life according to the NTCCs mandates, and that take precedence over any other career or recreational plans, unconditionally. We were taught that it was ultimately a waist of time to participate in activities other than "NTCC activities" such as soul winning and church services and conferences.

I know of an NTCC pastor who held his daughter back a year in school because her schooling interfered with his "NTCC" plans. Many parents didn't allow their children to participate in any extra curricular school activities because we were instructed not to by the NTCC leadership. It was preached and taught that in the eternal grand scheme of things, extra curricular activities or other activities such as sports, plays, martial arts, adult education, boy scouts, swim classes, sporting events, fairs, carnivals, theme parks, family outings, and anything else that didn't involve church services and soul winning was ultimately unimportant and a waist of the time that GAWD allocated us here on earth. And you know what? There are some biblical grounds to support such teachings but here is the problem and this goes back to my original point. "The Kekels".

The Kekels son was raised according to a whole different set of understood rules and standards. The Kekels son was allowed to participate in activities that the rest of us were taught were a waist of the time that GAWD allocated humans here on earth.

So you ask; "what is your point Jeff?" Some people who post here think we should back off GK because he is still kid living in his parents house. Others say "forget that, my kid was also a child when the NTCC leaders got all involved in my family business while occasionally openly humiliating my child in the process of doing everything they could to prevent me from allowing my child to have the same childhood that GK has been given all along."

Well I see both sides here and for that matter quite clearly. I believe that we should leave children (who are still in school, K-12) out of these discussions for the most part, but there is a problem if we categorically take that approach. The NTCC leaders and pastors never took that approach. The NTCC leaders stuck there hypocritical noses into every bit of our families business that they possibly could, while giving us guidance concerning our children that the Kekels never even followed. It's a slap in the face that some of us may very well never get over.

NTCC LEADERS: Because we trusted you, you took advantage of our trust and you stole our kids childhood with mandates that the Kekels never followed for their child. We thoroughly resent that and we won't forget. Believe it or not, in our lives, such events parallel 9-11. These are events that you just don't forget. You did more than just play games with us when you concocted all those rules, you messed with our children.

Jeff Collins

Thread #64 A picture of RWD while announcing what churches he will or will not visit.

The NTCC is a caste system. Here is a definition that I found: A social structure in which classes are determined by heredity. The NTCC has different classes of people within their ranks. Those classes of people are often determined by "heredity" which practice we quite frequently refer to as nepotism. Here is a definition of nepotism that I found: Patronage bestowed or favoritism shown on the basis of family relationship, as in business and politics: She was accused of nepotism when she made her nephew an officer of the firm. For those who haven't figured it out, that is the NTCC way. Partiality and favoritism runs ramped throughout the NTCC. That point was effectively illustrated in a message that I quoted below which was written by blovd.

blovd wrote...

Just remember the times that there was a conference or a big fellowship. Where were the board members? Sitting by themselves with only a few preachers that RWD hand picked to sit with them. Why are you afraid of sitting with the common brothers and sisters? They are not good enough for him? They can't teach him anything? Which brings me to the time in a conference telling the pastors who wanted him to come to their church for a visit, he said:

"I won't visit some of you because you want to put me in a roach coach motel. I'll come to see you when you are doing something for God! When you are running more people than I! Only than will I come and see you so you can teach me how to build a church and tell me what method you're using to bring people in. In the mean time don't expect me to come by to preach to your 5 or 10 people."

blovd statement is so true because I've witnessed the same type statements made by RWD during conference. If you've spent any time in the NTCC, I'm sure you've witnessed the same also. Either that or you are living in denial. RWD runs his church like a "family owned business", and it is more a business than a church for sure.

Jeff

Health Care. What Kind Of Health Care Does The NTCC (INC) Provide It's Ministers?

Thread #63 With the passing of Senator Edward M. Kennedy, I felt that a fitting subject to discuss should be health care. I've never been a big fan of Edward Kennedy, however if you study his past you can not deny that the man has been a champion of health care reform. Senator Kennedy witnessed the need for U.S. health care reform while in the hospital with his ailing son. While witnessing the financial struggles and burdens of many people around him , Edward Kennedy realized that he was fortunate enough to pay for health care that many others could not afford. This realization challenged the man to do more in an attempt to improve health care than any other political figure on record. Because of his own experiences surrounding extremely severe illnesses with his son and daughter, the "liberal" Senator Kennedy had quite an interesting and admirable compassion for people in need of health care. Do so called "conservative" Christian leaders in the NTCC display the same sort of compassion? Many would contend and affirm that they do not.

RWD and his cronies have consistently and proudly stated that the NTCC is a business and should be run like a business. Pastors such as Mr. Hunt have openly stated while in church service, that they considered themselves "company men". Well if the NTCC is a company / corporation (which it is), and if the NTCC considered itself a business (which it does), then why has the NTCC never attempted to provide any kind of health care benefits for it's so called licensed ministers? I will tell you why people. Because the NTCC leadership only runs their church like a business when it benefits them, (the leadership).

My question is, how many people out in cyberspace have ever struggled to get good health care or even keep good health care insurance while serving as a minister or ministers family member with the NTCC? Does anyone else feel that the NTCC, as a corporation should offer at least some kind of health care benefits for it's licensed ministers? Every company that I have ever worked for since I've retired from the military has offered health care benefits without one exception. Is the NTCC a legitimate corporation or not (which I already know it is), and if it is why doesn't it care enough about it's ministers to offer some kind of health care benefits? I know the answer to that question as well. Because the only people that the NTCC leadership is truly interested in taking care of is the NTCC executive leadership. RWD, Kekel, Olson, Kinson, Ashmore are the ones who get taken care of in the NTCC. The vast majority of remaining ministers by far simply have to fend for themselves.

I worked at a Toyota Store and of course the owner received a whole lot more money than I did but the owner also offered health care benefits to all his employees. The dental coverage that he offered was excellent and I took full advantage of it. I get health care with my military retirement but I receive absolutely NO dental care so I am thankful to have worked for three corporations who offered good dental care benefits. Does the NTCC INC offer such benefits?

You work for the NTCC don't you? If you say you don't but rather you work for God, then why do you send any money to Graham? RWD supposedly puts money in some kind of general tithe fund so why don't you put your money in your local church general tithe fund instead of sending it to Graham? Is it a business or is it not. Please answer the question. Why does the NTCC control your escrow accounts? Oh I understand now. It's a business when it benefits the NTCC but it is not a business when you need health or dental care. I see how it works. Once again Old Jeff is just finding fault; really?

Boy is that some kind of business / corporation. Where health care is concerned, the NTCC wants to act like a common everyday church on the corner but where RWD's and Kekels wallets are concerned, the NTCC wants to act like a business and has stated as such all along. For that reason and many others that I would rather not be a part of the NTCC. If I am totally responsible for taking care of my own family, I'm certainly not going to be taking care of Kekels at the same time. I would that the NTCC hadn't got one dime from me but they certainly won't get another one.

Jeff

This Is Good Information!

Thread #62
There are certainly some crooked people in the NTCC. This is a picture of RWD, Olson, and Kekel with his guitar. I don't know who the little dude at the bottom is? I didn't want this information tucked away in a thread with 166 posts. This is the true nature of the NTCC. Here is what you didn't know and were afraid to ask. This is the Atom Bomb of all exNTCCer threads and you can only find it on, "New Testament Christian Church, The Real Story", brought to you exclusively by the Chief Meister.

Jeff

Why Do NTCC Ministers Regualarly Attempt To Defame People Who Have Left The NTCC?

Thread #61
I see the importance of addressing this topic for a variety of reasons. First I think it is necessary for people to understand the mindset of an NTCC minister who regularly practices slander as a means of justifying his position. Second I think it is important to learn and understand methods that can be used to "limit" the degree that NTCC ministers are able to take your own personal information and use it against you.

NTCC pastors inherently, by virtue of their position, are interested in doing whatever is necessary to protect their reputation even if it means slandering their previous associates. NTCC pastors have learned that if they can thoroughly discredit "all" people who have left their church, then the pastor can effectively take all the attention away from his own shortcomings. NTCC pastors have proven to be brutally malicious at this approach. Additionally NTCC pastors claim that their departed church members use the same technique against them in an attempt to cover up their sins. This is sometimes true however it is certainly sometimes false. Make no mistake; in the NTCC, sins have proven to be relative anyway.

The NTCC pastors are notorious for never wanting to admit their own sins while simultaneously taking every opportunity to highlight what they perceive to be the sins of others. If an individual does not understand the nature of NTCC pastors, he or she will fall victim to the NTCC pastors brutal slander and smear techniques every time.

First lesson: As much as you want to trust your NTCC pastor and rightfully you should be able to, DON'T. NTCC pastors have proven that they can not be trusted to keep your private information private. They regularly violate their code of confidentiality when they feel it benefits their position. Don't ever tell NTCC pastors about your private affairs. Family affairs, financial affairs, social affairs and especially marital affairs and such like should be kept to yourself. You will save yourself a big headache and many regrets if you take my advise on this one. NTCC pastors may provide effective assistance temporarily, but if you ever leave their church they are notorious for using your private information against you in order to slander you while trying save face.

Second lesson: Don't let an NTCC pastor in your house. He will scan your dwelling place for items that he can use as preaching topics to be used against you in his next message. Many NTCC pastors won't allow you in their house and you shouldn't allow them in yours. Do yourself a favor and have all conversations with NTCC pastors at the door! Don't laugh at this one becasue I know what I am talking about.

Third lesson: If and when you decide to leave the NTCC don't ever give your NTCC pastor a reason for why you are leaving. They all will take your reasons and twist them to support their stance as to why they were in no way responsible for your departure. The only reason they want to know why you are leaving their church is to cover themselves when questioned by their seniors. When they ask you why you are leaving you simply say that your mind is made up and that is the end of the story, PERIOD! Trust me, you don't want to get wishy washy on this one because you will regret it if you do.

Forth lesson: You do not tell your NTCC pastor what you do on your personal time. If you want to go on vacation or go visit family or go to the fair, that is not his business. He will use it against you while stating that you are a compromiser and then say that you never wanted to serve God in the first place when you leave his church. If you let your NTCC pastor control your life he will jump on the opportunity hook, line and sinker and you will never get him off. Knowing what I know now, I wouldn't even let an NTCC pastor know that I was leaving town. What you do on you free time is none of his business unless you make it his business. When he realizes that you don't plan to make your personal life his business he will back off or if he doesn't you simply need to leave his church.

You can ignore the advise I have written but I promise that If you do, soon or later you will regret it. Words to the wise.

Jeff

NTCC Folks Creating New Blogs

Thread #60
New blogs created by NTCC people are popping up like weeds all over the Internet which is amazing in itself because no more than 7 years ago the Internet was called the devilnet and the sinnernet by many NTCC ministers to include RWD. So I guess that God finally got on line with computers? Either that or RWD wasn't always inspired by God like he claimed. I strongly suspect it was the second. One of the most recent blogs has been created by an NTCC pastor by the name of Briggs for the express purpose of trying to convince exNTCCers to leave the NTCC alone once and for all. It is no more than a psychological ploy to encourage us exNTCCers to simply move on with our lives and forget that life in the NTCC ever existed. Let bygones be bygones, right? Did the Jews forget that 6 million of their people were slaughtered by the Nazi's during WWII? Do you think they just moved on? If someone murders one of your family members do you simply forget about it, make amends and turn the other cheek? Of course not.

Well I'm not going anywhere. The NTCC has thoroughly messed up the live of thousands of folks with their sinister tricks, psychological manipulation, financial extortion, abusive preaching and teaching tactics, craftily created marriage counselling designed to cause divorce, and outright lack of concern and consideration for their fellow man; all for the purpose of furthering the advancement of nepotism for monetary gain. There is "NOTHING" genuine or sincere about the information contained on the blog in question. The agenda is clear. To suppress the voices of the dissidents. PERIOD.

Well our voices are necessary. Many of us have moved far past the fear and the possibility of being intimidated by NTCC ministers. My mission is clear which is to find folks who are not afraid to write of their experience while with the NTCC. This is important because there are still NTCC people who are trapped by the NTCCs manipulative practices. Many of these people draw enough strength to leave the NTCC behind when they realize others have experienced the exact same treatment they are currently experiencing. They draw strength when they see that we fearlessly express our disgust for the NTCCs abuse with absolutely no negative ramifications coming against us.

Don't by off on this, "can we all just get along garbage". "Why don't we just let bygones be bygones"? Because that's garbage. They weren't preaching that trash when they were smearing and discrediting our names and reputations the minute that we left the NTCC. The days of NTCC folks manipulating and controlling me are over, so no; we all can't just get along. As long as you NTCC guys refuse to admit to the double standards and widespread abuse, I refuse to stop exposing you for exactly what you are; religious Pharisee style hypocrites.

Jeff

I Just Replaced My Thread Numbering System With A "Recent Comments" Section Over To The Right

Thread #59

It's quite simple. It shows the 15 most recent comments throughout all the threads. You click on the comment that you are interested in reading and it directs you to the thread. Then of course you must go to the bottom of the thread because it will be either the last or one of the last comments. This is obviously easier than my prehistoric thread numbering system. I guess that is why the calculator replaced the counter device illustrated in the picture to the left. So much for my thread numbering system. There is about a one to two hour delay before your messages hit the "recent comment list".

Jeff

Hodge-podge

Thread #58 The previous thread got so long that it started a second page. It's become too long to effectively read. Actually that probably happened about 150 posts back. It got hot an heavy quite rapidly so I let it continue, but it is time to start a new one. I see no need to title a new topic. Folks don't seem to have a problem finding things to post these days.

Who does this picture remind you of?

Jeff

Post What Ever You Want As Long As It Doesn't Deal With The Topic Of "Fear"

Thread #57
I was asked to start a new thread. The sky is the limit.

Jeff

Folks Are Running Scared

Thread #56 It's nice to be able to "freely" post here at all without being concerned about some NTCC creep turning us in to RWD. I could care less what RWD or anyone else in the NTCC thinks about me. NTCC pastors generally, are of very low character, (with some exceptions) so it disgusts me that I was ever interested in pleasing them in the first place. Well those days are over. Kinson and Kekel have been doing pretty much what they wanted to do all along with no real concern about retribution from the leadership and they are in the NTCC. How much less should I be concerned now that I am out? Of course everyone knows I'm not concerned but I figured that I would throw that out there just the same.

I have talked to exNTCC folks who are actually worried for their safety if they were to talk about the NTCC. As a result they sometimes post but anonymously. NTCC folks are worried about retribution from the leadership so as a result they also post anonymously. The NTCC has some exNTCC people so shell shocked that they are worried about some NTCC nut coming after them. I talked to Vic Johanson last night, (who I proudly proclaim to be my friend) and neither Vic or I could care less who knows that we speak against the NTCC. Unfortunately the NTCC does have a history of breeding nuts. Some stay with the NTCC and some leave so as a result both sides are paranoid. An NTCC preacher told me just yesterday that he has someone bring a gun to church just in case an exNTCC church member decides to show up and go postal or something. Both sides (the exNTCCer and the NTCCers) are running scared. So much for the peace of Christ? You have exNTCCers worried about an NTCCer coming after them and you have NTCCers worried about exNTCCers coming after them. How absurd. You couldn't pay me to become a part of the NTCC again. I just preach against the NTCC now.

Oh wait a minute, what I am doing is not preaching? Here is a definition that I found: to advocate or inculcate (religious or moral truth, right conduct, etc.) in speech or writing.

I inculcate the moral truth here in writing, so therefor I am preaching. Can I get an Amen? Ha, ha. LOL

Jeff

PS: NTCC preachers are running around with more guns than the LA PD. Don't even preach about faith in God you bunch of hypocrites. Your faith is in your gun but if you want to know the truth, I really don't blame you. If I didn't have a true relationship with God my faith would be in my gun also. I don't remember reading about Elijah running around with a weapon. God was his weapon. James, John or Paul didn't have one either. Not once they started following Jesus. Jesus didn't carry a weapon for that matter. These NTCC guys aren't as interested in being as much like Jesus as they say they are. That is why these NTCC preachers start tripping about money every time the funds stop coming in. They loose their faith and they start going crazy on their church members for more money. I've seen it happen time and time and time again. The NTCC is a big joke. Amen, preach Bro Jeff. Can I get an Amen.

What Direction Are You Heading? Allow Yourself To Think About It!

Thread #55 Below is an excellent message that was written by pdq. I clearly understand that it is time for many NTCC folks to wake up and realize the direction that their life is heading. It will be a sad edict to wake up at 65 or 70 and realize that you have totally waisted your entire life. You better think about it because time is ticking, tick, tick, tick. I can imagine you telling God, "God I thought I was following you?" Only to hear God respond, "I'm sorry but you were deceived".

Jeff said...

The NTCC likes to state that "the road to hell is paved by good intentions." It's not often that I agree with the NTCC ministers because they have been blindly taught by RWD to be master manipulators, however the above statement seems to be quite valid. I am convinced beyond all doubt that RWD, Olson and Kekel have their people deceived. You ask how I am so sure? Because of the responses that I get from NTCC folks on this very blog!!!!! I am convinced beyond all doubt that the vast majority of NTCC folks have forfeited their ability to use good judgement, think on their own, think logically, while sincerely and objectively analysing RWD and Kekel's true intentions. They simply don't have the ability to do it. They could recover that ability, but only under one condition; they must want to. As long as they don't want to see the bare truth about the NTCC, they never will. Some folks prefer darkness over light and they would rather believe a lie than receive the truth by admitting to themselves that they have been hoodwinked by RWD, Olson and Kekel all along. That can be a very hard pill to swallow; I know as well as anyone!

Without further ado, pdq wrote...

I had a plan for my life before NTCC. The plan is still there, but a person only gets one shot at life, to make what they can out of it, and do all the good they can while it lasts.

I spent almost 20 years of my mortal life in NTCC being worse than an infidel. If I live to 80, this is almost one fourth. I could have died lost in sin.

Like you Jeff, I have not allowed my time in NTCC to debilitate me. I owe it to God—and my family, present (my NTCC friends have all forsaken me) and future friends (so I won’t be a burden to them)—to maintain my motivation (and drive to succeed in reversing the damage) high, and to keep my attitude right so I can avail myself of all the opportunities God has been presenting me with. The iron is now hot and I must strike while I still have my health and some youth left.

For the NTCCer, as they approach the end of their days, when they have stayed in NTCC long enough for it to be too late for them to reverse the deprivation, they will have nothing. In most cases no children to help them when they are old, no substance to help themselves when they are old, no friends that can help them (because they are in the same boat), a church that does nothing substantive or lasting for them, multiple marriages in their wake, poor health, bad teeth, no home, junky car, no more opportunities...no hope. Lonely, alone, scared, and seething from their wasted life and missed opportunities.

Public assistance, national health care, food banks, thrift stores, public transportation, unhealthy food, et cetera, will be their lot. Will there even be any Social Security in another few years? What will the Ministers that opted out of Social Security do? The husband may be able to go to the VA but the wife likely won’t (if she is not prior service). If a person manages to save $50,000 by the time they are too old to make any more money (or Pastor), this will yield $1,000 per month for 4 years and 2 months.

The NTCC life is a life of missed opportunities, shattered dreams, and squandered substance; the owner of which the Bible classifies as worse than an infidel. Since they won’t be able to reverse this they are condemned to dying as an infidel (worse). They didn’t take care of their family, themselves, sinned against knowledge, their own better judgment, will be held accountable, and can only rightly blame their own self.

God has delivered me from my NTCC life of NTCC compromises, NTCC misdirection, NTCC sleight-of-hand, NTCC double standard, NTCC’s bad example, and never fulfilled NTCC promises of God’s blessing just around the next corner. I have been given another chance, and for this I am grateful to God. A chance that was impossible for me to take advantage of until I pried NTCC’s hands of avarice from my life; which I also allowed to attach to my family, potential, substance. Chances no one can take advantage of while a part of NTCC.

pdq (who morns for those in NTCC)

Seeking The Truth

Thread #54 In the previous thread Concerned Minister wrote...

"I believe there is a problem with abuse among some of the pastors in the field. I am looking for possible sources for it and trying to get a deeper understanding of its causes and effects. It goes deeper than "they learned it from Pastor Davis."

Jeff said...

For those of you who don't know, Concerned Minister says that he is an active NTCC minister. Based upon his written statements I think it is quite likely. The reason I say this is because he has deservedly elected not to reveal his name so as a result we don't truly know who he is. He does regularly go by his screen name which I wish others would do more often as well. Some who only post "anonymously" or "anonymous" have no credibility with anyone on this blog. Concerned Minister seeks to be the voice of reason with exNTCCers on this blog and he often seeks to perpetuate a different point of view that often favors the views of the NTCC. I have no problem with that despite the fact that I don't agree with him quite often. Open dialogue is very good nevertheless open dialogue is something that RWD generally does not allow under any circumstances. It is either his way or the highway and he has stated that in many different ways.

Jeff then replied to Concerned Ministers original statement...

I thought about this whole abuse thing again and your statement that I quoted above. You are actually right; it does go deeper. Right before my family left the NTCC for good pastor Oberhauser made two notable statements during church service. He said "some of you won't allow me to pastor you." Then he said and I quote, "someone told me that I am too nice and I need to be more rude."

Jeff said...

First thing: Who ever told him he needed to be more rude had to a leader senior to him. NTCC pastors generally don't receive pastoral advice that they are willing to implement if it does not come from a senior leader. This guidance that Oberhauser was given had to come from an overseer or Kekel or Olson or RWD or a senior pastor such as Kinson. Which ever the case Oberhauser was effectively told to become abusive because that is exactly what being "rude" is.

I don't allow people to be "rude" to me and my family and continue to put up with it if I have any other choice. And guess what? That is exactly what Oberhauser did but the more proper description of the metamorphosis that he displayed was turning from someone who was nice into an abusive jerk. The way he treated Sis Haynes was totally unacceptable. Concerned Minister: He was told to act that way by someone in the NTCC leadership.

It was definitely taught and I have seen the same thing take place before with 5 other NTCC pastors and I witnessed the occurrence with my own two eyes. The only difference is that some of these guys didn't go through a metamorphosis. They showed a consistent pattern of being abusive jerks all alone.

Concerned Minister: Someone does not have to give you a verbal directive for you to be taught something even though that was the case with Oberhauser. You are being taught something every time someone suggests that you follow the "example" of other leaders. That is regularly taught in the NTCC. Everybody wants to be like RWD or Kinson or Jones or Olson and so on.

The reason there are "so many" abusive ministers in the NTCC is because it is a common occurrence and therefor "copied by many."
Everything I have written is a "FACT" Concerned Minister and can not be disputed.

Jeff

How To Spot An Abusive Church

Thread #53 An Anonymous writer posted this information two threads back. I thought it was so good I quite rapidly decided to make it a headline. This is excellent information that very accurately represents the NTCC.

Anonymous wrote...

How to Spot an Abusive Church

Thousands of Christians have given up on going to church because of the spiritual abuse they have suffered as part of another congregation, says a pastor who offers warning signs that a pastor may be too controlling.

In "Exposing Spiritual Abuse," Mike Fehlauer says that the problem is "rampant and more widespread than we have wanted to believe," and relates several horror stories of the way some pastors have exercised inappropriate power and control over their church members.

In his Charisma House book, Fehlauer tells of a West Coast family told off by their pastor after going on a vacation without first getting his permission. The rest of the congregation was ordered not to talk to the family for a period of time, during which the children were not allowed to play with other youngsters in the church.

In another church, a young woman was told that she should not date her boyfriend because he attended a different church, and a man was told that his wife had not been accepted for the worship team because she was too fat and did not meet the unspoken " 5-7-9 " rule, referring to the dress sizes acceptable for singers.

Such stories are "much more typical than any of us would like to admit," Fehlauer writes. "The sad truth is that many churches today struggle with varying degrees of control, which can lead to devastating abuse if not corrected."

That abuse has resulted in "untold thousands of wounded and disillusioned Christians who believe they've been burned by the one institution that was supposed to help them." Many turn their back on the church for good, he adds.

The pastor of Tree of Life Church in New Braunfels, Texas, Fehlauer outlines the key warning signs of an abusive church, including "power positioning" where the pastor starts to take the place of Christ in people's lives, the demand for unquestioned authority, and an atmosphere of secrecy.

Other "red lights" include an elitist attitude that discourages members from attending other churches, an emphasis on "performance," motivating members by fear, and difficulty in leaving on good terms.

Anonymous

PS: We have three good threads in a row so please feel free to continue with any one of them.

Be Careful When You Say, "God Told Me..."

Thread #50 Written below in quotations, is a statement that Diana Taylor posted about four threads back. It is definitely information that I believe should be headlined. For all who don't know Diana Taylor; she was in the NTCC for about 25 years. While in the NTCC, Diana traveled all over the United States with her husband who pastored various churches and serviceman's homes for decades. In 1985, I lived in a serviceman's home that was run by the Taylor's. L. Taylor, Diana's husband, was the first pastor that I ever had while I was with the NTCC. The point I'm making is that Diana Taylor knows about as much about the NTCC as "ANYONE" with the exception of a select few. The Taylors went to the the NTCC's seminary in the 1970's. I don't at all mind some opposing dialogue on this one, but please don't directly attack Diana. Thank you.

Diana Taylor wrote...

"In the New and Improved NTCC I would like to start a list of don't do's...Be careful when you say, “God told me…”

I want to share an incident that happened to me and my family not long before we decided that we were no longer going to attend NTCC. We had come back to the home church for reasons that I don’t wish to discuss, but in that time I began to notice how different things were in the home church.

My son had gone to talk to some of the teens after service while waiting for us to finish fellowshipping with other ministers and their wives. We went home as we normally did, only to get home and receive a phone call from Rev. R.W. Davis saying that he wanted to speak to Andrew. I said sure and handed him the phone. I heard some of the conversation from my son’s response and began to wonder what was up. Andrew hung up the phone and came up to me with this question. “Does God lie?” To which my immediate response was, “NO!” I asked him why he asked. His response to me has stuck with me to this day...He said, Mom, Rev. Davis said that God told him I said this and did that.” I said did you admit to it? He said No because I did not do it. I told him don’t ever admit to something that you did not do, even if someone says God told me.

I left this organization not long after this incident. Many might ask why you would leave after belonging to this organization for 25 years. My reply is simple…If you as a minister of God missed what God was really trying to tell you in something so small, how can I trust your judgment with my life? There is no way in Hell that you can tell me anything from this point on. The Shepherd is supposed to watch after the flock."

Jeff wrote...

That incident is a pure shame. For a change I have nothing else to say.

Written by Diana Taylor and posted by Jeff Collins

What's Up Homeboy?

Thread #49 Here’s the story folk’s. This picture was posted on Mike Kekel's blog. What interesting about these pictures is that they show a pattern developing within the NTCCs hierarchy. With RWD being quite old now, Kekel has become the new captain of the ship. Kekel is perpetuating a new notion of a new kinder gentler NTCC than was previously taught by RWD. This picture shows an image of a young NTCS graduate acting like one of the homeboy’s back on the block. Is that actually a big deal? No of course it is not. The guys are having a little fun and they should be, after all they went through at the NTCC school of rules. The problem is RWD would not have previously advocated that type of conduct. The guy's cap is tipped backwards while he throws up the old sign with his lips clenched. He reminds me of one of the homeboy's from the hood. RWD and his ministers have always taught that is creating the appearance of evil. Is there actually a problem with the guy having fun? No, of course not, but why did Mike Kekel choose to post "that" picture when RWD has never approved of such conduct? Because Mike is trying to show NTCC folks what the standard is, while creating the impression that things have been like that all along. We all know they haven't. RWD never ever advocated or condoned someone acting like one of the homeboy's and he certainly wouldn't have allowed it to be posted on the internet.

There is another picture on Kekel's blog showing a group of young kids playing an innocent game of foosball. This is a game you find in a bowling alley or arcade. Sounds like fun. The boy in the rear right corner of the picture behind and to the left of the tall guy has his hat flipped around backwards. Once again RWD wouldn't have condoned that. The NTCC always wanted us to create a certain kind of impression to the public. I understand the kid turned his hat around to more effectively see the table but RWD would have told the parent to have the kid turn it back around or take it off, and then he would have preached at the parent during the next service. Instead Kekel posted the picture for all to see. I'm assuming this is the inside of Kekels house? Boy Kekel is loaded. That is all the good old NTCC money hard at work. A game room while ministers are running around broke? Kekel is sucking you guys dry. Boy he is living high on the hog. I'm really disappointed that I sacrificed one dime toward the NTCC. I see where my hard earned money went. For all the money that I gave to the NTCC my family could have had a game room. We have a very nice house but no game room. I want one. Maybe I will get a game room one day. It will take me longer than Kekel because I am not getting money from everybody else. Plus I'm having to play catch up since I left the NTCC because they sucked up every dime they could get out of me. NTCC folks have the nerve to say I'm greedy? Kekel's house is proof of his greed and it came to him at the expense of all his broke ministers. Who else in the NTCC has a house like Kekel's? Other then RWD show me one person. Something is wrong with that picture.

Jeff

Overcoming Post Traumatic NTCC Disorder By LaQueshia Jeffries

Thread #48 First admit that you have a problem.

Speaking from personal experience, after deciding to leave NTCC, my first instinct was to frantically look for churches that met the NTCC mold. I had maintained some ‘friendships’ with people still in the organization, and I did not want to appear unsaved in their eyes. So I knew I needed to find a new church quick. Many of the places I attended were either just as misinformed or manipulative as the NTCC. And the ones that weren't, I picked apart with my judgments and criticism.

It took me quite a while to get it in my head that I had left the organization for a reason. And the reason was that I had erred by continuing to attend even after the little angel on my shoulder screamed that I should get out of dodge. Yes, I had messed up, and I had to tell myself that it was okay to step back, take a breath, and admit a profound mistake. After that, the pressure to appease that NTCC voice in the back of my head began to relent.

Seek Help.

Although my family was happy to ‘have me back’, I still did not want to delve into all the lies, abuse, mischaracterizations, and hurt I felt about having attended the church. However, it is through sites like Fact Net and Jeff’s blog that allow one to decompress and move on. (Fasten your seatbelt, we’re about to plunge deep.)

Molestation is a terrible thing so I do not use this example lightly, but it is worthy of a comparison. For years I suppressed the memory of my own molestation and chose not to deal with it. Only God knows how that has affected my personal relationships and approach to life. After years of trying to move past NTCC and feeling guilty and nervous with every visit to my mother (since I always ran into members and former friends), it finally came to a head when I called Jeff. I had always wanted to believe that the leaders were just misguided and had no clue the damage they caused people. Even after Rev. Parr castigated me for withdrawing and attending fewer services, while pregnant, and after having lost my son’s twin, I was angry but chalked it up to his inexperience as a leader.

But I always knew in the back of my head that the Elders were intimately involved in every aspect of a given church, especially a servicemen’s work. Anyway, Jeff told me of the land transfer between the NTCC and Kekel, and I became sick to my stomach. I abruptly ended our call and cried my heart out. Some 3 years after leaving the organization, I finally realized they were completely wrong. NTCC was not the voice of God, but instead the brainchild of Davis. Talking to others and allowing yourself to grieve with quicken the much needed healing process. Suppressing your feelings will not.

Apologize.

Depending on how ‘zealous’ you were you may need to sign many “I’m sorry!” letters. I had to apologize to my mother for acting in a disrespectful and smug way to her. To my sisters, who sat with me after one of my miscarriages, (something no pastor ever did, since I miscarried a few days before conference), even though I told them they were sinners and barely maintained contact with them. Finally, I had to forgive myself for being a jerk and for being prideful and dumb, at the same time. During my time in NTCC I thought I was so superior to others, that I had the answers, when I truly did not. Forgiving oneself for ‘wasting time’ is one of the hardest things to do. But ultimately, the time is already gone, it cannot be retrieved.

Stop wishing and start living again. If you do not know how to begin, simply start by emulating someone who is happy, helpful, and honest. It will become easier over time to discern genuine and legit people. As a matter of fact, those few honest and lovely people you met in NTCC may have actually left by now. See if you can find them. The woman who invited me was always so sweet and forthright, even while in the org. She left approximately a year after I did. We are still great friends to this day.

Written By LaQueshia Jeffries and posted by Jeff Collins

The Damage Control And Smear Campaign

Thread #47 Last night we received a phone call from a couple who had been with the Columbus. Georgia NTCC under the Oberhausers. We all were in the church together for quite some time. A couple years or so. Of course we knew them fairly well. They were still in the church when my family left and they witnessed the smear campaign. In addition to their witness, was another person to whom I have talked.

They told us Oberhauser said that everyone who had left his church (NTCC), "God will destroy". How is it that a minister feels that he has the power to bring a curse of God upon people who leave his church? How can you say you love people when you want to see your own prophesy of God's destruction brought upon their lives simply because they left your church. No one slashed your tires, they didn't slap your wife or even kick your dog; they just left your church because you had become abusive just like your counterparts.

In the same manner that people preached loyalty to "Davis and the NTCC" after the Denis split, Oberhauser was said to have preached for about two months on loyalty to himself and the NTCC. This is also what the brother told us.

Oberhauser would also say to the church that "no one had voted him in and no one was going to vote him out." Ironically he actually did get voted out when the NTCC leadership replaced him with Hunt: the very man whom Oberhauser had replaced previously. Here is the funny part. A few years earlier, Hunt had left the church in Columbus and was replaced by Oberhauser because Hunt said that God never called him to be in Columbus in the first place. Hunt said God had called him to Montgomery Alabama. Hunt said that Denis had tricked him into coming to Columbus and that is why he hadn't followed the call of God directing him to Montgomery. Then guess what happens just a few years later? Oberhauser runs the church into the dirt and apparently God changes his mind about Hunt being needed in Montgomery because Hunt came right back to Columbus to replace Oberhauser. I guess God couldn't figure out what to do with Hunt or Oberhauser for that matter. I know the NTCC leadership will say that Oberhausers time was up in Columbus anyway. That is garbage because Oberhauser was a failure in Columbus and the NTCC leadership knows it. Didn't Oberhauser go back to Graham? That is what the church members were told. The NTCC is a joke. I posted information on FACTNet a while back concerning the complete debacle that existed within the Southeastern NTCC church region. Here is the link.

http://www.factnet.org/vbforum/showthread.php?t=12458

Back to the smear campaign. Oberhauser told this married couple that my marriage was in shambles. He also told them that I loved my house more than I loved God, and that is why my family left his church. Oberhauser told this couple that I was quote "greedy". Do yourself a favor NTCC folks. At all costs, avoid telling your NTCC pastor any of your personal or marriage buisness because all they will ever do is use it against you. The NTCC pastor will blab it to every church member he has, if you ever leave his church. He will do that to discredit you and your spouse. Lets get something straight here. My wife and I had plenty of very serious disagreements while we were in the NTCC. She was absolutely opposed to going to the NTCCs school of rules AKA bible school, and as time went on she fought me every step of the way and I thank God. You can best believe this subject in itself caused many problems between us. I thank God we never did leave to go the the NTCC school of ridiculous rules and abuse, and I give my wife much credit for that very fact.

Since Oberhauser had lost and or ran off about 85% of his church, money problems plagued him. He had to get a job as a result. He preached / blasted this husband about buying his wife gifts vs giving more money to the church. As you all know NTCCs tactic is to divide and conquer if they suspect that a spouse is straddling the fence. Oberhauser would suggest that this mans wife should come secondary to the church and as a result undo stress was placed on their marriage.

Jeff

Oberhauser’s Bully Pulpit Antics

Thread #46 My wife posted this on FACTNet over a year ago in responce to a post that I had written about the Oberhausers. It is relivent to the previous thread as it also relates to the Oberhauser family.

My wife wrote...

My husband Jeff is way too nice Bro. Oberhauser, I agree that you owe your wife an apology. (Bear with me as I give more details)

HERE’S THE REST OF THE STORY. The beggars were a man, two women and a baby. Church was over and everyone was outside. While Sis. Oberhauser was inside the church with the young woman, the man and the older woman were out sitting in the car joking and laughing. Bro. Oberhauser, my family and everyone else standing outside saw this plainly. My family was already in our van getting ready to drive away. Sis. Oberhauser got the van keys and started heading for their van. At that point, my husband beckoned for Bro. Oberhauser who came over and explained that he was not going to give the people money, but was sending his wife to follow them to the gas station to pay for $5 in gas. (WHAT?) My husband at that point said he did not like this situation and told Bro. Oberhauser that we would follow his wife if it was okay with him. Bro. Oberhauser stayed back at the church.

Once at the station, Sis. Oberhauser seemingly was about to pull up beside the beggars at the pump and Jeff quickly motioned for her to park directly in front of the store. We pulled up beside her and he either vocally or through hand gestures told her to just go on inside and pay for the gas. When she came out, Jeff told her (and I can’t remember his exact words) that she just needed to leave at this point.

One Week Later. I went to the Sunday night service alone because my husband was staying home with our son. Bro. Oberhauser was standing outside and stopped me before I walked in by saying something like “You can just get on down the road now”. I looked at him puzzled and asked him what did he say. He repeated similarly “You can just go on and hit the road now”. At my second puzzled expression he began to explain that those words or something similar had been spoken by Jeff to his wife. He asked me if I remember Jeff saying those things. I told him I didn’t remember exactly what Jeff had said to Sis. Oberhauser and that he needed to ask Jeff. Bro. Oberhauser then went on to tell me (in a very clipped tone) that he didn’t talk to his wife like that and don’t allow others to speak to her in that manner. He asked if Jeff talks to me that way. He indicated that perhaps the change he was noticing in me was due to problems with my husband. He asked if Jeff was abusive, etc. I answered no and that any changes he might perceive had nothing to do with my family life. He called his wife over, who was talking to someone in the parking lot, to verify what he was saying. Bro. Oberhauser then told me that he would talk to Jeff about this face to face and did not want me to mention it to him. I foolishly agreed to do that. To Jeff: I apologize.

Well Bro. Oberhauser, I kept my word but you didn’t. I waited everyday for Jeff to say something about your promised face-to-face discussion, but it didn’t happen. About two weeks later, Jeff got his face-to-face discussion in a Sunday Morning sermon. Imagine that! As I sat there listening to Oberhauser go on and on about how you should talk to people and not offending people with your words, I never saw any alarm register on my husband’s face. On the way home, I asked my husband if Oberhauser had talked to him about the above mentioned situation. He said no. I then told Jeff about my conversation with the Oberhausers and that I felt this morning’s “introductory message” was for him.

To date, Bro. Oberhauser has yet to “defend his wife’s honor”. Firstly Bro. Oberhauser, you owe your wife an apology for sending her into that situation alone. A policeman friend and brother here in the city can give you countless situations of good Samaritans being victimized all the time by scam artists. The handful (literally) of people standing outside of the church was more important to you than the safety of your wife. Where were your priorities? Can you spell
B-A-D J-U-D-G-M-E-N-T ?

Secondly, you made my husband the ogre in the whole situation. He was only trying look out for YOUR WIFE, something you failed to do. So what if he spoke with urgency to her during a time when a seemingly innocent situation could turn bad in a moment. Then to add insult to injury, you nailed him from the pulpit. Maybe you had taken the time to see your fault in the matter and wanted to avoid having Jeff enlighten you on your bad judgment. Who knows?

Thirdly, you confronted me when I was alone about a displeasure you had with my husband. You vented your anger towards Jeff to me. You attempted to villainize Jeff in our marital relationship under the disguise of giving me pastoral counseling. If that wasn’t enough, you requested that I betray my husband and not tell him about any of it because you wanted to talk to him “face to face”. As I said before, I foolishly agreed to that. Maybe I was so uncomfortable at that point, I would agree to anything to end the conversation. Nevertheless, I was wrong. Bro. Oberhauser you pitted me against my husband at that point and THAT WAS WRONG!

Admitting wrong when it’s plainly before your face is a bit much for many NTCC ministers. How truly sad it is. And that’s the rest of the story. Good day. (ph)

Mrs Collins

True Stories To Come From Ex Columbus Georgia NTCC Church Members

Thread #45 ********NEW INFORMATION WRITTEN AT THE BOTTOM************

I received a call last night from a couple who left the Columbus GA NTCC quite a few months back. Boy did they have some horrible stories to tell. As it turns out the Oberhausers proved to be just as abusive as so many other NTCC ministers that I had the displeasure of becoming acquainted with. This thread could turn out to be quite lengthy because Oberhauser did much damage as the church pastor. Whats new? Oberhauser fell way behind his contemporaries as an effective preacher / orator, but he made up much ground in other areas such as thoroughly incorporating all the abusive practices that NTCC preachers have become quite well known for.

I know what you are thinking. Mild mannered Oberhauser? Surely not. The NTCC can take the most mild mannered person and turn them into a real monster which is exactly what happened with Oberhauser. Just like so many wives of abusive pastors, Mrs. Oberhauser faithfully stood by his side and cheered him on while he raked his church members across the coals. My wife and I have totally lost respect for both of them. The way they treated their church members was totally uncalled for. I will be very careful to write exactly what I was told, and there were more than one or two witness. There were three which is just the way the NTCC likes it. You know; biblical and all.

You may be asking? Why would Jeff want expose the Oberhausers and how is that possibly the right thing to do? You need to ask Oberhauser the same question before you judge me, because quite apparently Oberhauser did everything in his power to smear, discredit, and assassinate the character of me and my wife after our departure from his church. We were told of such things by three different people who stayed in his church after we left. If everything works out, I will give the explicit and accurate details later this evening so stay tuned.

Here is one thing Oberhauser said. My friend asked Oberhauser about the Kekel land deal. Oberhauser told my friend that RWD had bought the land and that "he" RWD had given it to Kekel. Oberhauser also told my friend that RWD didn't want anyone else to get the land such as another family member in the event that RWD died. Oberhauser said as a result RWD gave it to Kekel in order to alleviate that possibility.

Now I asked my friend for clarification and my friend firmly affirmed that his recollection of Oberhausers explanation about the land deal was accurate. I was also told the same thing by yet another person who is still in the Columbus church. First thing; Oberhausers explanation was totally false. RWD did in fact NOT give the land to Kekel. The land was already in the NTCC's name so it was given to Kekel by the NTCC INC. as a gift. It was not given by RWD. Olson signed his name approving the land gift to Kekel donated by the New Testament Christian Churches of America Incorporated, NOT RWD. The statutory warranty deed proves what I have said. Here is a link. http://www.scribd.com/doc/11648899/Mc-Kekels-Land-Gift-From-Ntcc

Secondly, with that being factually the case, Oberhauser was also wrong with his expansion about RWD not wanting his family to get the land. They couldn't have gotten it because it was already in the corporations name and consequently corporate property. That explanation was bogus to say the least. Oberhausers entire explanation was bogus. These NTCC ministers can not be trusted at all.

Jeff